Gorean Philosophies

[denuseri]

I am often times asked what it means to be Gorean. Or Just what is the Gorean way of BDSM, it's core philosophy etc.

John Norman's series called "The Chronicals of Gor" presents a world view with a strong philisophical basis in "virtue ethics". It has been adopted by many in the BDSM community becuase of it's wonderful depections of D/s power exchange.

Alltough there are many people out there calling themselves Gorean etc, thier are few who follow the ethical and moral codes expoused by Norman in his oft misunderstood series.

I have seen virtue ethics brought in to play several times throughout Normans work.

My Owner, Husband and Master, describes the Gorean Philosophies to me as: "A hierarchy of dominion" in which the responsibility of each cast is to seek perfection in thier given craft, in fact every individual in the pursuit of thier duties (including Masters and thier kajirae), is to strive to adhere to the very highest of standards (much as in the Zen dominated Japanese society of the Imperial era, as well as the Greeks and Romans ardor and glory orientated societies of classical civilization).

The powerful dominant males of Gorean society are presented as cruel yet fair, certianly not malicious. Such malicious acts, perversions, crimes,etc.. in fact all our societal woes are presented to be the direct result of our emasculation of male dominance here on earth, brought on by the advent of certian technologies and political mascications.

Within the hierarchy of Gorean truths there is no such thing as equality in an individual sence. The idea of it is preposterous, we each preform to our own individual capacities, and where that places one above the other so be it.

Those who are in power are presented to have great responsibility to those which have submitted to thier rule. They hold dominion over those bellow them in every biblical sence of the word, just as those bellow have an obligation to preform thier duties with pride on behalf of thier betters in fact urging all to even greater acts of accomplishment through competition. In other words; from Ubar to kajira, all involved, have an equal responsibility to thier society as a whole.

The purpose of this thread is to initiate a discussion on Gorean philosophies as well as educate the Gor curious as to what it is that we who identify with Gor are all about. I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

[littlepet]

I just find what I've read of the books to be: A. Poorly written and B. Disgustingly misogynistic.

The philosophies set forth are IMO misogynistic. (I could start copy and pasting parts of the text) From an evolutionary perspective it is true that a large portion of women are somewhat submissive to men in romantic exchanges, but that's a far cry from women being submissive and willing slaves to men period as a general gender basis.

In addition misogynistic texts with ideas such as these have always been used as excuses to dominate women in the general public sphere. While I agree that dominance and submission even on "traditional gender roles" between a man and a woman can be a beautiful thing, it should not be assumed to be a thing that most women deeply secretly want, which is what the books suggest.

And yes, it's a fictional planet called Gor, but...it's repeatedly suggested in the novels that Earth should be this way too but the men are too weak on Earth to force the issue, so it seems very much like Norman's actual philosophy put to fiction, rather than just fantasy.

And yes the books are fantasy, but...the part where it becomes bizarre for me is when fiction is used as a basis for a real life lifestyle. Again, not trying to judge you. You have been completely mature and kind in our exchanges and I don't want to disrespect and judge you but it's very difficult for me to separate the lifestyle completely from books I find so personally distasteful.

Then my second problem with it is that I think when people base their personal relationships upon a series of books, they take away so much of what could be "just theirs" by adhering to a preset list of rules. And this can happen in the overall larger kink community as well, even outside of Gorean Lifestyles, like the tendency towards people in the Scene to expect that all subs/slaves/pets are going to deferentially address all dominants.

That might seem "polite" to some people, but it's invasive to others. And seeks to overly "codify" something that really should be more personal and private.

I think the largest mistake Feminism ever made was trying to come into people's bedrooms. And I think the Kink community in a sense sometimes does the same. While it's nice to interact with others who "get it" it can be invasive when others who "get it" are possessed with the drive to educate others on how to "do it right."

And no, I am not saying you are doing this or have done this. But I think we can agree there are many self styled submissive and dominant mentors who would like nothing more than to train others to be as uber wonderful as they are.

It's one thing for someone to say: "Here is the safest way to wield a cane" It's another, IMO for someone to say: "Here's the best way to train a submissive" An individual master determines that. And while one may ask for advice on such a topic, often that advice comes unsolicited.

To think that there is some uniform way to train submissives is something I've always found insane, and that is why when I found the writings of Jon and Polly I did connect very much with what they were saying.

And also because J and P live a lifestyle in many regards similar to my own. There is a bit of an issue with the whole, "I'm a female with a need to be owned/controlled by a male" Because I wouldn't submit to a female. I would kick a woman's ass before I'd ever let her dom me. And if she was a lot bigger than me, I'd just have to fight dirtier.

But...I think the problem with the Norman books is this wild speculation, taking a few evolutionary/sociological concepts and superimposing them to this degree. I just find the books crass.

Examples of ewwwww to me:

” … when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome, even a Free Companion may find herself looking forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither a mat nor a blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl. … A taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women.” Why do the men do this? “It is the Gorean way of reminding her … that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men.”

"It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155

To me this is not virtue, it is not love, it is not honor. "taught her womanhood?" Are they freaking kidding me?

That's just two things out of a whole bunch of things. (I wish I could find some of the branding references.)

I have probably said too much here and if I have, you are welcome to tell me where to shove it. Just trying to express my thoughts on the issue.

It's one thing to say: "It seems to me that many women have a desire to be submissive to varying degrees, with a small percentage desiring to be completely owned by a man" (which is my view) It's quite another for someone like John Norman (I know, not his real name) to state what HE states.

I also think such ideas might have been less misogynistic and insane had they been more nuanced from a woman's pen. But that's me.

I am also against all forms of Caste systems. I don't agree with certain "roles" for anybody. While some types of people may as a group tend to gravitate toward one thing or another, any kind of proscribed roles tend to hurt the people who don't fit into those roles. This is felt very sharply in India where a caste system is still in place. This has been felt sharply by many woman for centuries as their options have been severely limited to just what men thought a woman's "place" was.

And while I do agree that we have quite a "pussification of the American male" going on, I think "cruel yet fair" in describing the men of Gor, is about like saying biblegod is "loving, yet if you don't agree with him he'll let you burn in hell for eternity."

[denuseri]

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]I know what you are saying.

It is simular to saying all of the followers of a given religion or philosophy are wrong becuase you disagree with one small fraction of thier belif system taken out of context.

I am not saying that the gorean way or Norman way is the only one. I we really dont need to reprint the entire text here of his works content to prove it eaither, there are too many volumes to go through. Though i see you have only chosen those few pasages that you could find that would sound mysoginistic taken out of context.

Which proves my earlier point in another thread that most people mis-inturpet the total message and volume of his work.

Litterally missing the forest for a couple of trees.[/COLOR]

It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155

I have personally experienced this blissful submission described above with the quote you would have me see as degrading to wemon. I am proud it is in my nature to submit and i no longer fear to do so as i once did when i was younger.


” … when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome, even a Free Companion may find herself looking forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither a mat nor a blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl. … A taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women.” Why do the men do this? “It is the Gorean way of reminding her … that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men.”

The underlined portion above is something nearly every single submissive woman i have ever talked to has said that she also craved (some dommes and switches as well) as i have craved it at one time or another. havent you ever wished to be put in your place before?

As for the bottom part of the quote, the thing was written for a certian audience and wouldnt be congurent with the hypothetical world view he used for his characters if not worded that way. It is after all a story, not a philosophical diologe. He is also saying what Gorean men think. Not nessesaraly what we the reader should think nor what people here on earth should think, alltough the characters in the book may say such things,, Gor is presented as an alien world to us. Its ways are presented differently frome our own.

The world we live in is the way it is.

I see it differently from you. All the following i have taken from one area or another of Dr Langes books.

In my heart of hearts I know what I am, what I was born to be. Honnor and love and duty to Him. Utter servitude to my Master in all things. These are my meat and bread. These are my life, my very soul.

There is no greater love than the slave to her owner. Bound by more than just his will. The passion of the kajira for her owner is absolute. She is more than just property and can do no less than give of herself to him everything.

Many say the free woman is incabable of love as the slave loves.

Only the slave is completely open to her owner in all ways, there are no secrets, no hidden desires, she is naked before Him in all. She bares forth her essence to him in everything, and he deepens her servitude with his strength over her, for she is his most cherished property.In this the slave has nothing but utter trust and total devotion to her owner. Even her own deepest fears must be put aside to please her owners desires. No free woman can truely give this much of herself. It is something truely rare in the world.

A man is a fool who plants a garden and does not tend it well for harvest. So too it is with his other property, his slave in paticular.

My owner possesess me in total, I am His. Collared and trainned in all things, every aspect of life permeated by his dominion over me. My owner loves me. It is no weakness for him to do so, but his greatest strength. I respect him in all things, he keeps me in my place and i adore him for it.I am his bueatiful kajira. His most prized and valuable possession. I am irrevocably His. Nothing is allowed to be hidden from him. I entertain him. Even when I try his patience or am playful, or disobedient I do so in his name, to ever help him keep me well in my place, to further his enjoyment of his property his kajira his slave. His in total i submit.

In this i am what many Goreans call a love slave, born and bred specifically to love my owner in every way.

It is a bueatiful moment when the woman realizes that the man who owns her is her "love" Master and the man realizes that this girl kneeling before him tears in her eyes is his utterly , his love slave.

The slavery in which a love slave is kept is an unusually deep slavery. She must serve him with a perfection that which would stun and startle other girls; if she should fail in any way, even in so small a way that the lapse would be overlooked in the case of another wench, or bring perhaps a mild word or reprimand, she is likely to be tied at the slave ring and whipped; there is good reason for this; she is, you see, a love slave; no woman can be more in a man's power; and with no woman must he be stronger................... Beasts of Gor, pp236

[littlepet]

Hey Seri,

Point of clarification, I said it was "difficult" sometimes to separate the lifestyle from the books, i didn't say I couldn't do it.

I pulled out "two pieces out of context" because my post would have been too long with more. I also don't feel that this is the place for me to pontificate on my views on a work of fiction in the completely unedited sense that I feel I must express those views.

I have more here...and even THIS is just the tip of the iceburg.

http://gor-issues.wetpaint.com/page/...the+Gor+novels.

There is a disclaimer at the top of the page, because the comments do get quite snarky with regards to Norman and his um...novels.

As for "context" this is a point that has often been leveled at me by christians who say I just don't understand the context under which biblegod ordered rape of foreign women in the old testament. My reply is that there is NO context in which that is okay to me.

I also realize you are not saying the Gorean way is the only way. Nor am I in any way trying to say you shouldn't follow it. If it speaks to you, more power to you, that's what freedom of choice MEANS. It means I don't have the right to come dictate to you what you must find misogynistic.

By the same token though, I have my own feelings over what I believe to be misogynistic.

What I think may be hard for me to express well here is that I don't care about the "overall work" I think there are plenty of examples throughout the entire work that pretty much holds up my view, but even if there were only the things on the page I linked above, it would be too much.

As it is, those things are not particularly graphic or explicit for the most part. It gets much worse in later novels, where it seems Norman forsook all attempts at plot altogether in favor of the "Don't you stupid women know you're meant to submit to the penis!?!" line of thought.

I have no problem with submission, or my own submission toward my own master. What I have a problem with is the view that it's a woman's "Nature."

I can assure you, that while many women may have varying drives of submissive tendencies, they do not ALL or even the bulk majority have the depth of need that you or I possess.

While many women have sexual fantasies of submission, the key point is that they direct their own fantasies, they have not truly given up all power and cotnrol to another human being, and most women, do not WANT to.

Sure, it's in MY nature, it's in YOUR nature, but it's not in EVERY woman's nature. And to insist that it is, in my opinion is misogyny.

Also, your and my natures of submission vary on another level just between us. You (if I understand what I've seen of you on the boards) are a submissive in general. You seem to tend to defer and make peace and especially toward anyone else who is a dominant.

I, however, am not that way. While I'm deeply submissive toward my own master, I have absolutely no need or drive to submit to any other human being, no matter whether they are "dominant" or not. Male, or not.

This is because, I am somewhat of an alpha female. I kneel before only ONE human being. Period. Now sure, he could "make me" show this deference to other people, but it would be outside my nature and it would show a fundamental incompatibility and lack of understanding of who I am as a human being. It would cause me to resent him, or it would ultimately crush my spirit, but no true and noble good would come of it.

The second text, what we're talking about is a FREE COMPANION. A woman who has not said she wishes to be a slave, a woman who has been trying desperately to maintain her freedom. Trying to just "assume" that deep down "because she's a woman" she must secretly crave to submit to any and all random men, or even just one man, is an act of violence against her.

One person's fun forceful sexual encounter is another person's rape. Would you ever say that a woman WANTED to be genuinely raped? Probably not. And yet, to me, this little segment of the text suggests something just as bad. For a woman to be demeaned and left stripped naked on a cold floor, chained up, and "put in her place" arguably because she is "a woman" and "all chick's really dig that."

The fact that YOU would crave something like that, does not mean all or even most women would. And even those who would, the circumstances under which it would be beneficial rather than harmful, would likely be quite narrow.

I can promise you, if anyone but my master ever attempted such a thing, their head would end up on a pike, and likely by my own hand. Not that my master wouldn't go after said person, but I'm fairly certain my ass would get there quicker.

The kind of things espoused by this text are abusive. Having lived through an abusive relationship, in which a man fucked me and then threw me coldly on the floor afterward on more than one occasion, as only one small portion of his cruelty to me, I can tell you that this is NOT what women want. And John Norman's insistence that it is, even through fiction is a product of his own fevered daydreams and not reality.

Saying it is "just a story" would be fair IF there was not a LIFESTYLE based around it. And the apparent "deeper philosophical views" underlying the text. So it's unfair to say in one breath, that these books espouse a certain type of philosophy, and in the next say: "oh but it's just a story." That's shifting the goal posts of the argument.

I have not spoken once against your personal feelings toward your master or your slavery, I speak ONLY against the Gorean assumption that "women" have a "place."

And you forget also, that I am also in fact, owned. My lack of deference to all males, or all dominants, and my personal distaste of a certain set of novels does not diminish this fact.

You not having witnessed my submission is not a proof text that it doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist for anyone but my master.

[MacGuffin]

the part where it becomes bizarre for me is when fiction is used as a basis for a real life lifestyle.
This is my problem with it too. I think of groups like the Star Trekkies pretending a fictious lifestyle and ask myself what's the difference. Invented languages and so on make it all the more hard for me to treat seriously.

And seeks to overly "codify" something that really should be more personal and private.
Here here. For me it's all about doing your own thing and making up your own rules to suit you and your partner. As soon as we are forced or put under peer pressure to conform to a certain code of coduct we lose individual freedom, the exact opposite of what it should all be about.

To think that there is some uniform way to train submissives is something I've always found insane
I agree to an extent but there can be principles which good training should conform to. It's like education, yes each training course should meet the specific needs of the trainees but nevertheless there can be global guidelines, criteria and best practices.

Saying it is "just a story" would be fair IF there was not a LIFESTYLE based around it.
I'm not sure I understand what lifestyle really means. If there was a commune somewhere with people living in Gorean community 24/7/365 then I could. I ask whether it can truly be considered a lifestyle if a person leaves home every day into the outside non-gorean world to work and behave the same as millions of non-gorean others until coming home to live some, not all, aspects of Gorean way of life in the comfort and privacy of the home.

Of course each to their own and it's not for me to criticize anothers chosen path. I am merely explaining my problems with it and why the "Gorean Lifestyle" is not for me.

[orchidsoul]

Saying it is "just a story" would be fair IF there was not a LIFESTYLE based around it.
I'm not sure I understand what lifestyle really means. If there was a commune somewhere with people living in Gorean community 24/7/365 then I could. I ask whether it can truly be considered a lifestyle if a person leaves home every day into the outside non-gorean world to work and behave the same as millions of non-gorean others until coming home to live some, not all, aspects of Gorean way of life in the comfort and privacy of the home.

Interestingly enough, many peoples lifestyles revolve around "just a story". Most notably any religion.

I'm not religious, nor of Gorean philosophy, but I get it...
If we read something that speaks to us, mind body and soul, why would we not want to adopt it's practices? Not to mention, we're not obligated to agree with or practice every custom listed- that's an even more amazing choice in adopting philosophies of literature.
I'm fairly suspect if I ever met Denuseri, I would not be expected to immediately kneel/bow before Kukovian. Both aware that Gor is not my life style. Assuming that's the case, it would lead me to believe there are philosophies in John Norman's novels that they do not adopt into main stream culture. Otherwise wouldn't every woman Kukovian ever met be kneeling/bowing at his feet?

For many of us, our life styles often are inspired by many books we've read, or experiences we've had... some just focus on a specific series because there's no need for them to look elsewhere.
Many people walk out into the world with different philosophies and customs than those around them- everything from religion, ethnicity, and sexual proclivities-if not, we'd be segregated even more so then we already are... and that's an extremely sad world, imho.

Bottom line- If it works for you without harming anyone else, then all the more power to you. I for one am always interested in at least learning about others philosophies, regardless of whether I agree with them.

This thread has been an interesting read for me because both views are expressed...Thank You!

[littlepet]

Hey MacGuffin,

On the issue of training, it reminds me of "child rearing books" Where supposedly there are "proper ways" to raise children. While most people will agree they shouldn't be allowed to just run in the street or you shouldn't beat them bloody and lock them in closets, that's mostly common sense and any decent human being knows that.

Parents don't learn how to "raise children" they learn how to raise the child or children that they have. Because each child is a unique personality and this or that "technique" won't work for everyone. And if it works on the surface, it might not produce the proper response.

For example, spanking. Some kids are spanked and it makes them more obedient. As a child I was spanked and it just made me more sneaky and less capable to be honest with my parents about my feelings about things.

I became MORE resistant. Now they could have just started beating on me I suppose, and if their need to dominate me was so great they would have had to break me to do it, then that would have been that. But IMO it wouldn't have been a "proper way" to raise a child. Or more specifically not the proper way to raise me.

Speaking of training a submissive as if there are these special "secrets" treats submissives/slaves/pets as if we are a "category" as opposed to individual human beings. One learns how to deal with someone by interacting with that specific person, not trying to find sneaky ways to dominate them or something that LordMasterStupendous determined was the "best way."

On the lifestyle thing, I don't really know what to do with that. You bring up good points. I'm still stuck on the issues I have with the novels themselves and the writer of said novels.

Hey orchidsoul,

You make very good points, and I don't think that Goreans are running around behaving like that. I don't think that you'd be expected to behave in any certain way at their house either.

There are many fictional erotic novels that I've found very hot, or that spoke to me in some deeper way, but I didn't decide that who I was was in some way tied up in them. I'm not saying that doing such a thing is "wrong" I just don't "understand" it. It's even harder for me to understand it when there are things in the source text which I find personally morally disturbing. This may be why I don't follow any religions.

While I may pick and choose from various sources around me to help me to determine my views/beliefs/etc, I don't think I ever could again take any one book or philosophy completely wholesale as a system.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people must have SYSTEMS. Is it part of humans being pack animals? Or does it run deeper than that? Does something feel more real or valid if someone else wrote about it first?

[Thorne]

On the issue of training, it reminds me of "child rearing books" Where supposedly there are "proper ways" to raise children. While most people will agree they shouldn't be allowed to just run in the street or you shouldn't beat them bloody and lock them in closets, that's mostly common sense and any decent human being knows that.

Parents don't learn how to "raise children" they learn how to raise the child or children that they have. Because each child is a unique personality and this or that "technique" won't work for everyone. And if it works on the surface, it might not produce the proper response.

Actually, parents have to learn both. As the father or two boys I learned that they had to be treated differently, as you say. Yet, there are certain basic commonalities which need to be adhered to as well. Many of these I learned from my own parents, and from helping them with my younger siblings LOTS of them: I was changing diapers at 13. When we had our own, I had to teach my wife some of the "tricks of the trade". Parents of boys will know at least one of these!
The parenting books can help those new parents who have no prior experience with children. Especially if there is no family support group, such as grandparents, aunts & uncles, etc. But these are just generalities, for the most part, and not necessarily to be taken as gospel.
The same should apply, I would think, to books and articles about training submissives. As general guidelines, to help the couple learn new techniques and possibilities, they can be valuable. They shouldn't be considered as the only way to do things, though.

There are many fictional erotic novels that I've found very hot, or that spoke to me in some deeper way, but I didn't decide that who I was was in some way tied up in them. I'm not saying that doing such a thing is "wrong" I just don't "understand" it. It's even harder for me to understand it when there are things in the source text which I find personally morally disturbing. This may be why I don't follow any religions.

Unfortunately, there are far too many people out there who have difficulty separating fantasy from reality. Just think of all the people who cannot bear to miss their favorite TV program, who suffer severe bouts of depression if a favored character should get killed off, or who change their entire self-image to mimic a favorite character. You see many of these kinds of people, as MacGuffin suggested, in the Trekkies, or Star Wars nuts, or in those bizarre religious cults.

While I may pick and choose from various sources around me to help me to determine my views/beliefs/etc, I don't think I ever could again take any one book or philosophy completely wholesale as a system.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people must have SYSTEMS. Is it part of humans being pack animals? Or does it run deeper than that? Does something feel more real or valid if someone else wrote about it first?

I think we all tend to pick and choose among philosophies which resonate within us, to one degree or another. That does not mean we have to dive fully into any of them. And yes, people are generally social animals, depending upon the family, the tribe, the clan, and the state for their survival and, to some degree, for their identity. It's my feeling that those who read more, who think more, who are, perhaps, more intelligent, tend to loosen those bonds of dependency to a greater or lesser degree, learning to be themselves more individually and less as a member of a group. But there are still many, many people who need that group, perhaps because they are afraid to attempt to define themselves for themselves.

Like you, littlepet, I tend to denigrate religion, in general, because I have learned to think about it rather than just accept it. And thinking about it exposes the discrepancies within the teachings of any religion, some of which you have already pointed out. And like any other good book, the Good Book is filled with discrepancies!

As for the Gor books, I first came into contact with them in the early '70's shortly after their initial publications. I read the first several books, enjoying them because of their (minor) science fiction content, their sword & sorcery content, and not least because of their sexual content. I gave them up for similar reasons to yours; the decline of a good story and the increased dehumanization of women.

I enjoy a good erotic story myself, and I will even admit to enjoying some fictional stories about rape and forced submission. The difference is, I know that it is fiction. Reading of real men (and women, sometimes) doing those things to real women, or children, makes me sick. We all need to learn to live in reality, and keep the fiction on the page or the screen, where it belongs.

[denuseri]

Thanks orchidsoul you said that much better than i could.

We also have never expoused to view the philosophical bio-ethical truths taken from the novels as a "system" nor have i said they are the only way to do bdsm, please people read what i have written before composing a reply.

As for me being generally submissive,, LMFAO

Despite the threroritical setting of the books, we are in fact living on earth, there is a big difference between theroy and practice.

Few are the men or wemon for that matter that i submit too. If I dont truely sence dominance from an individual then I fill in with my own, and with an enthusiasium that most find a bit overbearing.`~ask around most newbies here actually think I am a domina, and if one truely reads the books they know that by the conditions stated within, I am not even remotely expected too submit to all, none of the Goreans in the books that come to earth act in such a fashion, indeed it would go against thier ethical depection to do so. (if and only if my "owner and my owner alone wishes for me to submit to another i do without reservation, becuase in doing so i am submitting to "HIS" will and that is the only circumstance that i would.

(Now if living on the constructed world described in Dr. Lange's books things would be different. For all of us, and we wouldnt have this conversation).

As mentioned in earlier posts, My owner and I follow the law of the land we are in within reason, just like everyone else. We do not expect all wemon to kneel at my owners feet nor me to kneel at every mans some of my best friends here are female dommes, some are Gorean female Domme's (wrap your brain around that one) which shouldnt exist (becuase according to the misogynist supporters they should all be on thier knees) ~contrary to the argument being made that goreans are misogynsts, of course the people who say that ussually havent actually read the books so much as read what someone else has said to slander them or only read those portions shown them to support such a theroy.

To sugest that my husband expect all wemon to kneel at mens feet just becuase we identify with a certian philosophical mindset conserning D/s relationships in the individual setting of living on earth sugested by Norman is farcical to say the least.

We do not believe we are living on another planet people.

We do however believe that many of the philosophical ideas expressed by the series of books are very well wrought and worthy of our admiration and emulate them; just like we do many other things we find that sing the song of truth in our eyes.

BTW the thread isnt here to slam the books, If one reads the post starting the thread they will see its here to open a discussion on the virtue ethics that my owner and i have found to be useful in everyday life especially in bdsm relationships that we and many others have adopted from the books.

So far i havent heard a single thing in response to my original post from those who are vehmement detractors of the books.

[MacGuffin]

Pleasure to meet you littlepet

To clarify my point about training. Yes I agree with you that training should be individual to suit both the trainer and trainee. My point was that nonetheless there can be a higher level framework within which acceptable training methods should conform. Example: Training should establish the objectives beforehand. Training should include a periodic evaluation (test) of the trainee progress. The training methods should themselves be periodically reviewed to ensure they continue to be suitable. These principles are global and do not just apply to training but could apply to other situations.

[littlepet]

Seri,

I never ever once said that you lived your life just like the gor novels. I said I believe the Gor novels are misogynistic. And I disagree also with the philosophy that "women" have a "place" or "role." And that it is "submissive" toward men.

My stating you seem submissive toward others is simply because you tend to call other dominants "sir." This may be for only a few and not all, I have no idea, as I said "from what I'd seen"

I have not once in the entire time that we have spoken made ANY type of assessment about exactly what you may or may not be doing in your Gorean Lifestyle. i have not called you wrong or immoral or assumed anything about anything.

All I've done is said I think John Norman is a psycho and his books are misogynistic. That's it.

You said this thread isn't mean to "slam the books" but that was what brought me over here to begin with because we WERE discussing the books and the fact that I found them misogynistic. That was it. I don't care to debate someone's actual lifestyle because I don't care what people do as long as it's consensual.


Hey Thorne, I need social contact, but I don't tend to overly identify with any group.

On the Gor books, I can understand the eroticism to some people for certain parts, but it just goes too far IMO. And Norman himself seems to believe a lot of what he's saying, even if he's hiding behind fiction.

I write some fictional stories about rape and forced submission, but I think it's important to deal with such things, even in fiction in some type of moral way, IMO. i.e. while a character may develop some sort of stockholm syndrome, she's not going to "fall in love with her rapist." That, IMO is disrespectful to women and the actual trauma of rape.

I think for something like that to work in fiction and actually be erotic (as opposed to a story where a rape happens but it isn't eroticized), it can't be glorified as morally good or okay. And moving the action to another planet doesn't change the basic immorality of the situation.

[littlepet]

Hey Macguffin, I think we may be talking past each other. In a one to one personal master/pet or master/slave relationship I don't view training in that sort of rigid way.

Before we entered into this kind of power exchange we knew each other REALLY well, and we knew we were compatible enough for it on all levels. (which doesn't mean it was this easy overnight process obviously)

So in our situation training really comes down to him getting what he wants. And for me it's not a complicated enough issue to require a big training process or fifty zillion rules or a review board for the training process. (Sorry, being a little sarcastic, in general, not directed personally at you)

Basically it comes down to, I obey or I get punished. Or I argue, and either I don't get punished cause he agrees with me, or he agrees with me but I still get punished for the "way" I argued or whatever.

Which I know this makes it sound like he completely micromanages me, he doesn't.

He knows what types of punishments work with me. He may continue experimenting with rewards and punishments and varying his methods as time goes on, but it's very personal and individual.

I don't really think there is anyone on a message board who could "train" my master on how to deal with me. Because while someone may have seen "my type" before, this is the man who knows everything about me. My darkest secrets, my dearest desires, what makes me laugh, what makes me cry, what I'm afraid of. He knows how my mind works, he knows everything. There's really not a lot someone else could contribute to that discussion.

If he couldn't effectively "handle" me, we wouldn't be together, because he would have gotten annoyed or I would have long ago.

[MacGuffin]

orchidsoul

Care to give an example of any peoples lives revolving about "just a story". If you are implying the Bible, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Bible compiled 3 centuries after Christ at a time when millions of christians were living christians "lifestyles" and the most powerful man in the world, Enperor Constatine, was a christian. Hardly just a story assuming the christ and the historical e vents of early christianity is fact not fiction and the empire was christian before the "story" was written.

[orchidsoul]

yeah- I don't want to thread drift too much, though I think some really interesting conversation and ideas is coming out of this. Should the thread be split? I don't even know how to do that, or if there's interest however.

Like Racogzy, I'm interested in hearing about how Gorean practices and beliefs are incorporated. Truth be told, it's because the ways in which you incorporate it in your life, Denuseri, seem different than much of what I've read, even on Gorean boards. Often I've encountered too much of the alternate-universe-that-doesn't-really-exist for me and I've had a hard time getting past it.

With that being said, I would like to answer MacGuffin.

orchidsoul

Care to give an example of any peoples lives revolving about "just a story". If you are implying the Bible, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Bible compiled 3 centuries after Christ at a time when millions of christians were living christians "lifestyles" and the most powerful man in the world, Enperor Constatine, was a christian. Hardly just a story assuming the christ and the historical e vents of early christianity is fact not fiction and the empire was christian before the "story" was written.

That depends entirely on what you believe. I'm not doubting the existence of Christianity, per se, rather the actual events depicted regardless of who put the ink on the paper. And not only in the Bible. There's much research that proves and disproves various scriptures whether it be the Bible, the Torah, the Quran or any other sacred book.

Not to mention, the Torah is the Old Testament, technically the beginning of the Bible... and if I'm not mistaken (which I very well could be) it's not recognized by Christianity. In fact, it's the basis of a whole different religion.

I was raised Jewish and have the same thoughts on the Torah. For me, many sacred scriptures are stories (yes, some non-fiction as well) that have moral teachings included- some that wholeheartedly have influenced my moral code, and others that I vehemently abhor.

Much like many documents- from sacred scriptures to literature. Their entire make up is not factual per se (imo), rather espousing ideas and beliefs and it is up to our individual selves to extract what we believe to be beneficial. In fact, there's many different religions founded on Christianity, all of whom interpret the Bible differently... who's right?

It's been tried for many moons to prove the Bible, yet it hasn't completely happened. Therefore, yes, it's a story imo. But I don't think there's anything wrong to associate with ideas that resonate with us.

And yes Lilpet, i do think many people feel the desire to be part of something- whether it be religious beliefs, lifestyle choices, or the local softball team. Probably because of what you mentioned about packs. It's good to hang out with like minded folks, regardless of the cause.

hope that all makes sense

back to the regularly scheduled program.

Good questions, Racogzy!

[littlepet]

hahaha, or...in my previous post I missed a point...or he disagrees with me. hahahahaha. It sounded like he always somehow comes over to my side. That is not the case, lol.

[denuseri]

Well i dont mind thread drift,, its fine by me.

And dont assume i am taking what you post personally lilpet, i know you will continue to reiterate your points repeatably restateing your own personels views.

Besides i am more than used to such in here when i come out about being into gorean ideals.

The close minded reference stems from your earlier statements aluding to there being nothing of value that one could derive from the books. Norman has also written several non-fiction books as well. I have found great value in a lot of what he has had to say.

If you really want to debate the literaray style or his message without directly associating it to how i practice what philosophies my owner has incorperated into our own way of practicing D/s (which is not soley gorean) i might sugest you visit the following web site. Where the Goreans themselves congegate.

http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/


Of course ther is the horses mouth: and I quote a letter of Dr.langes from 2007 verbatum....

I certianly dont see a caste system or rape mentioned here. Seperateing the writter's intent from the fiction of a story is understandably dificult, unless the writter is bold enough to clairafy his own views as norman so bravely has done. Hide indeed. SMH



The qoute:

"How astonishing is the world-wide Gorean phenomenon!

How unexpected, certainly to me, that anything so different, and so remarkable, could occur.

It was not suspected, it was not sought, it was not envisioned.

I sometimes think of myself as some fellow wandering about, say, a thousand years ago, in some wilderness, who might by accident have discovered magnetism, or some new force of nature, one he did not understand, but one whose reality, once glimpsed, was as undeniable as that of iron ore, or rain, or wind, or lightning. He brings his discovery to the halls of indoctrination, mistakenly, and learns to his surprise that reality may not exist without permission and approval. It is permitted to exist only selectively, and then must be authorized, even licensed. The unlicensed reality is to be denied, or, at least, discreetly concealed.

Exploration, accordingly, is perilous.

And discovery seems to be worse.

One can live a three-quarters existence, of course. Most people do, or less. Certainly the nest is cozy; why leave home; the horizon is faraway; maybe it’s cold out there; it is different, at least; but one grows weary of worms; and one suspects wings have a purpose.

Is reality so terrible? That does not seem clear. We have been living with it for fifty thousand years, and sometimes we have even acknowledged that fact.

In any event, iron ore, and rain, and wind, and lightning are not voted on; they are not forwarded out of committees; they are part of the fabric of things, and intrude, however inexcusably; they seek no permissions, no approvals.

There is such a thing as human nature, the human heart, the human mind, the human body.

At any rate we did not invent the biotruths of human nature, no more than we invented vision, speech, the circulation of blood, the beating of the heart.

We did not invent men and women.

They are what they are, and what they are not is hollow vessels to be filled with whatever sugars and syrups their betters, the anointed cooks of humanity, the intolerant coveters of power and would-be imposers of values, see fit to pour into receptive, neutral containers, containers empty in themselves. How fortunate are the containers to be labeled from the outside by strangers who do not know them, or themselves, and to be filled with whatever contents these outsiders might deem in their own best interests! Too, the human being is not a social artifact, but a living thing, a remarkable animal; he is not a manufactured product, not a paper knife or can opener, not a party hat or rubber stamp, designed for purposes other than his own, though surely the original animal can be twisted and tortured into a variety of unusual forms. Is there any fact more visible on the assembly lines of society? The fact that a tree can be denied minerals and water, that its roots can be poisoned, its branches and bark torn away, and its leaves removed, delicately, one by one, alters nothing. The fact that the tree is not allowed to flourish, to fulfill its genetic destiny, does not prove that it cannot flourish, nor that it lacks a genetic destiny. Indeed the subversion of such truths presupposes their existence. The modern human is too often a bonsai human, cropped, stunted, and potted. The fact that a living thing can be twisted, torn, and pruned into a diversity of madnesses, depending on the ideology of power-seeking establishments, political, religious, and otherwise, alters nothing.

The dictators of values are short on credentials; their self-certifications are pompous and vacuous; the papacies of their self-canonization are suspect. Sometimes I think they suffer from brain damage; perhaps their halos are too heavy.

With all due respect one might offer the test of life consequences. Is it not worth considering?

If an ideology produces unhappiness, misery, grief, division, sickness, boredom, and hatred, surely this is not a commendation but an indictment.

Let men and women be themselves.

Do they not deserve the opportunity to inquire into their own natures, as they are, not as they are told they should be?

In any event, the Gorean civilization suggests that civilizations need not be prisons, suppressing, injuring, and minimizing their victims, but might be enhancements of nature, indeed, a part of nature, in her development, not her antithesis, not her adversary.

And so, what would be the great harm if, here and there, there might be occasional enclaves of rationality, and honesty, a few scattered pockets of health and sanity?

That does not seem so terrible.

So let the Gorean experiment continue."

[Ragoczy]

The purpose of this thread is to initiate a discussion on Gorean philosophies as well as educate the Gor curious as to what it is that we who identify with Gor are all about. I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

I, for one, would like to see a bit more of the original purpose of this thread -- that being a discussion of Gorean philosophies as actually applied in a lifestyle, rather than criticism of the source material. I think it's self-evident that those living this lifestyle have had to make adjustments from the pure source material, so criticism of the source material, rather than how it's been adapted, isn't entirely productive.

My knowledge of this lifestyle is rather limited -- I read a couple of the books long ago and read some internet material more recently -- but it does seem to me that this is one of the richer of the BDSM types. Meaning that it has a deeper, more structured context into which individuals fit themselves. That's definitely not for everyone, but it works for those who've chosen it.

It has never ceased to amaze me how members of a community such as ours, so readily and frequently told by outsiders how we "should" act, are so willing to tell sub-segments of our community how they "should" act.

So, to start some questions specifically about the Gorean lifestyle as it's actually applied: From what I remember of what I read, which I may have misinterpreted, a Gorean relationship is quite formal, is this so? And, if so, what sort of adjustments do you make in public? Also, is the formality full-time in private?

[littlepet]

Seri, I have no need to continually reiterate my views over and over. I merely thought we were having a different discussion than I think you thought we were having.

Because I don't CARE what people are doing in their own personal lifestyles. My comment that started the whole thing was "Well I think the novels are misogynistic too" and then somehow it turned into this whole big thing where I was close minded.

I find nothing of value in John Norman's work because I think he is a psycho who should be on a thorazine drip. That is my opinion on John Norman. I don't think his views are particularly elegant and I find them overly simplistic in terms of biology and gender roles.

I find Norman himself to be a little on the hysterical and emo side. And consider his writing to be hard to get through, not just because of the content of the novels, but the writing style. This writing style extends into his nonfiction as well.

Me not personally finding anything of worth in any of Norman's writing, is not being close minded. It's me deciding his stuff isn't up my alley. As well as determining I have no interest in the ravings of a misogynist. Fiction or non-fiction. Part of it is the style, part of it is the misogyny that I perceive to be in it, part of it is the overly simplistic worldview that I feel he espouses.

So yeah, all I have said anything about is my views of Norman and his writing. You can live any lifestyle or blend of lifestyle you want in any way you want, and more power to you. I don't critique other people's personal lifestyle choices.

On the topic of what "real Goreans do" Goreans can't agree on that. They're one of the most splintered groups out there. There is no final authority, so why should I get mixed up in figuring out how they all interpret the writings of someone I have no respect for?

If you consider this post to be a continual reiterating of my view over and over, I am merely responding to your latest post to me, to clarify in summary so we are all on the same page.

[littlepet]

Ragoczy,

I thought I had been invited to post in this thread to DISCUSS the source material, because I never made a comment about the lifestyle in particular, just the novels themselves. I honestly had no idea that Seri was inviting me over to discuss actual Gorean Lifestyle practices. All I had an interest in discussing was the source text, which I had thought was self evident, but apparently not.

I have no interest in critiquing or judging anyone else's personal lifestyle. That's silly.
I apologize for tying up a thread in a non-related discussion.

[Kuskovian]

"So, to start some questions specifically about the Gorean lifestyle as it's actually applied: From what I remember of what I read, which I may have misinterpreted, a Gorean relationship is quite formal, is this so? And, if so, what sort of adjustments do you make in public? Also, is the formality full-time in private? " By:Ragoczy

" Like Racogzy, I'm interested in hearing about how Gorean practices and beliefs are incorporated. Truth be told, it's because the ways in which you incorporate it in your life, Denuseri, seem different than much of what I've read, even on Gorean boards. Often I've encountered too much of the alternate-universe-that-doesn't-really-exist for me and I've had a hard time getting past it." By:Orchidsoul

Thankyou for expressing an intrest in learning as opposed to critisizing. It is refreshing for a change and apreciated.

Now to answer your questions:

It is as formal or as in-formal as the desires of the the inividuals involved want it to be.

The first rule between us is however "RESPECT" without that we have nothing. I respect her by holding dominion over her in a manner by which she may be proud and thrive in the joy and freedom she recieves in submission. She accordingly respects me by being pleasing in all that I require of her, (even testing my will on occasion is a sign of respect, as it shows that she cares for us not to slip into complacency) even when not in my presence.

In our relationship it varies depending on the situation. We laugh and share together (just like many instances depected in the books between couples) and just like any other human being does in any relationship vanilla or otherwise. (You would never guess just runing into us on the street that we are any different from any one else). Or that at snap of my fingers she would gladely drop to her knees).

I do generally keep her under a stricter level of disipline than that which most submissives would be comfortable with (see the Gorean quote on "Love slaves" posted in the "being Kajira" thread) but also I am much more understanding than most would believe a dominant ever should be.

It is not; however recomended that she or anyone ever mistake any apparent leniancy on my part as a weakness, it stems instead from my own self confidence that she has been well trainned under my quirt and honnors the trust and love we have placed with each other. If I was weak or didn't keep her under a tighter level of control than most; she would devour me whole, and I would expect her to do so with all the vengence of a wrathful woman scorned becuase she was not given the dominance over her life she craved.



Those of us that actually practice in real life what we preach and follow the true "spirit" of what Norman has written; are all too often miss-associated with the fanatics and posers that have so obviously not read the books (or at least didn't really understand them), so we have a tendency to keep to our own. Which is why you don't often encounter us.

All while being attacked directly or indirectly by the overzealous factions that claim to be "the only real Goreans" and misrepresented by those that think running around in a vidieo game makes them "Gorean". One group being crazy and the other fools, take your pick.

And then thier are the "anti-goreans" who spend a majority of thier time expounding sopphist rehtoric against anything about "Goreans" they fear that threatens thier world view over and over in an attempt to keep it confined and or censored; becuase they do not really wish to understand the broader picture involved. They all too often mask thier attacks under the guise of indirect slander and false pre-tense by slyly critiequeing the books instead of the practicioners of the books ways.

Just like the common theme presented by those claiming to support the troops but not what the troops are fighting for which: is indeed tantamont to saying "your full of crap for believeing what you do".

[damyanti]

Just like the common theme presented by those claiming to support the troops but not what the troops are fighting for which: is indeed tantamont to saying "your full of crap for believeing what you do".[/B][/COLOR]

Now, did you really have to muddy the thread with this comment...whatever it means,...because now I don't understand what you wanted to say with it at all. I respect soldiers who follow their chain of command, I respect their day to day missions in trying to maintain some order in a chaos that they have not created or even asked to be sent to clean up...they are merely trying to do the best they can and live up to their own code of honor. I can respect that, and I do. But there is no way I will ever condone the reason they were sent on a non-existent mission fabricated do to the fact that Georgie boy has a little willy. That man has no honor, he is a retard, thats not a personal opinion...let him take an IQ test. Now I fully support opportunities for mentally challenged people,...but I draw the line at giving them access to nuclear codes.
My apologies for abusing the thread, but you opened it up.


On thread:

I haven't read the books, they are a little hard to come by in my little corner of the world, (but I am keeping my eyes open, lol)...unless his style of writing is really bad, from what I have studied of the books and Norman I think I would like them. I doubt I would make it a lifestyle philosophy, but I would probably take bits and pieces from it...just as I do from anything I read.

I think the issue here is some people take things too seriously (crazed Goreans and those calling the books misogynistic)...from what I have seen Denuseri and Kuskovian make a really shining example of how to do the whole thing in SSC and loving manner.

My specific question is...whats the difference between kajira and ("ordinary") bdsm slave/submissive...except for a few exotic names, some extra positions (and imaginative sf role play, for some)...I really don't see what the big deal is and how its different from the rest of the bdsm...

I am a big proponent of this thing we do being a private thing between two (or more, if thats you thing, lol) people actively involved in a relationship.

Writers write and take inspiration in different ways and from different sources...who knows what Mr. Norman was thinking when he was writing a book...and frankly who cares. A person who is a misogynistic ass***e will find confirmation for his beliefs anywhere he wants...from Bible, through the fact that the sky is blue to supermarket discount pamphlet, lol.

There is no right or wrong...different things work for different people...it is whatever you make it to be, it is whatever you need it to be.

[MacGuffin]

orchidsoul - With that being said, I would like to answer MacGuffin.
You said - "Interestingly enough, many peoples lifestyles revolve around "just a story". Most notably any religion." - I challenged you to give an example given that all the major religions were living the lifestyle well before their "story" was written. That said, this is off topic so it's best we agree to disagree.

littlepet - Hey Macguffin, I think we may be talking past each other.Yes and no. I will send you a pm rather than explain here........oops looks like I won't - never mind we broadly agree anyhow.

Ragoczy - I, for one, would like to see a bit more of the original purpose of this thread
Apologies for being off topic. I don't know enough about gorean philosphies to discuss them so I'll just follow the thread for a while.

[orchidsoul]

orchidsoul - With that being said, I would like to answer MacGuffin.
You said - "Interestingly enough, many peoples lifestyles revolve around "just a story". Most notably any religion." - I challenged you to give an example given that all the major religions were living the lifestyle well before their "story" was written. That said, this is off topic so it's best we agree to disagree.

With the exception of the 'inventors' of any religion, everyone who practices the belief systems of said religion is doing so based upon the teachings- whether they're written or verbal seems irrelevant to me. If written is the crux of the question, then anyone practicing after their respective sacred texts were written would be those described in my original statement.

Thank you Kukovian and Denuseri (and Racogzy for excellent questions!) for an insightful look into your customs. I'm sure I'll come up with a question or two if that's alright.

[Kwong]

Hi just wondering is this worth reading? is it a good read or just informative?

[Ragoczy]

So how do you two, following the Gorean philosophy in your own lives, adjust your behaviors when dealing with others who don't?

I assume, for instance, that Kuskovian isn't dragging random women off the street and chaining them to a slave ring.

It's my understanding that a Gorean slave is expected to be respectful and deferential to everyone (?) to a degree that most in traditional society would find odd, so how much does denuseri have to adjust her behavior based on surroundings?

And finally, with regard to the Gorean moral/ethical code, how do you deal with those in traditional society, most of whom have, shall we say, an, at best, distant relationship with the concepts of morals and ethics?

[Ragoczy]

In a curious coincidence, some people at the local dungeon were discussing Gorean last night. I was concentrating on watching my kitten get her claws into someone and make the poor girl bounce up and down, so I heard only bits of the conversation, but it was about the Gorean status and hierarchy.

I heard mentioned: self, free men, children, animals, slave women and slave men as all falling in different positions on a set hierarchy.

Would you possibly expand on that from your viewpoints?

[denuseri]

By Kwong: "Hi just wondering is this worth reading? is it a good read or just informative?"

Some people have enjoyed the series very much, I obviously did. But with all litterary endeavors not everyone will aggree, bueaty is in the eye of the beholder. Some found the books to be overly descriptive or too detailed in philosophical issues, where as others read them for those very reasons.

By Ragoczy: "So how do you two, following the Gorean philosophy in your own lives, adjust your behaviors when dealing with others who don't?"

Unless I am following a paticular order or preforming a specific task purposfully designed to further my submission or excite my owner or my own desires for exhibition. the general public has no clue i am a pleasure slave under 24/7 domination.

Truth be told Sir, most other BDSM practicioners when meeting us in person would never know we were "gorean" at all until it comes to the use of certian words. During conversation or the verbal issuence of certian commands.

For the most part when dealing with those that disagree or look down upon us we try to show by example,, for actions speak louder than words

As my owner said in his post we take flak from the fanatically crazy types that call themselves gorean, who we personally cant stand, but we do still attempt to help them see the "forest" intead of focusing on a single "tree".

we also try do our best to try and show people our brand of bdsm isnt something to be feared which is no easy mission.

all too many people cant look past the word "Gorean or Kajira" and take offence and stereotype or pigeionhole us as being a fringe group of less than serious practicioners of bdsm by calling us a version of "trekkies" or "etc. (not the worst thing ive been called but just as hurtful, i litterally cried when i see some posts)

combating the bad stigma propogated for the most part by the overtly anti-gorean hype created in an earlier exchange by Jacobs and his constituents against the books is a difficult task

Helping people see that certian words or principles norman presents in his books that he himself has said were not intentions of how things should be on earth so much as how they were on gor is one of my main reasons for my being "online" He does cover in detail in the books how a "Gorean on earth would act" and we have found many of these principles to be in accordance with a harmounious life.

By Ragoczy: "I assume, for instance, that Kuskovian isn't dragging random women off the street and chaining them to a slave ring."

Giggles of course not Sir, that would be generally considered illegal, He is far to Honorable to abduct a free person or break the law in such fashion. To be Gorean on Earth is still to be Bound by Earth's laws. "when in rome" etc.

By Ragoczy: "It's my understanding that a Gorean slave is expected to be respectful and deferential to everyone (?) to a degree that most in traditional society would find odd, so how much does denuseri have to adjust her behavior based on surroundings?"

Besides my having to rememebr when I am moving to be aware of how my body looks from different angles etc, as to present oneself as aluring and pleasing as possible to my owners or anothers gaze.

My owner has me conform to the general principle that I am to endeavor where possible to be "pleasing". I am respectful where appropriate to the degree required by my owner in any given circumstance, including chat rooms. For instance I dont generally speak in "third person" in public or in those settings its not required of me. I don't say Sir or Maam where not socially acceptable by the everyday standards of where we live or are at the time. To do so would cuase unnessesary attention to our special relationship and perhaps disrupt the harmony of others which would disapoint my owner as then I would be breaking the first tenent of a kajira,, "which is to be pleasing in all things."

This doesnt mean i dont act spirited or even like a "domina" in some peoples opinion. I am after all also a living representation of the Kajira's fire and spirit, my slave heat and passion are only restrained by the disipline my owner and he alone keeps me under. If I sence Dominance in an individual and freely choose to submit or am submitting becuase my owner wishes me to submit to the will of another so be it.

All others beware. (wicked evil grins)

The owned kajira is not "common" property on earth or Gor despite the over zeaolous ones that have misinterpeted the text.

She serves the needs of her owner first and foremost.

A free person shouldn't expect to be able to just boss around the property of another without the owners permission; especially if it interferes with set standards of conduct for that property, and or previous orders / conditions to which the said kajira is subject.

The kajira that is owned must protect herself from harm in the absence of her owner's presence. She is the the precious property of a Gorean and should not forget it. (This also applies for harming herself.)

"These girls may be exchanged among men, but commonly they are not. Most masters are rather possessive about thier slaves, paticularly if they are fond of them." Gardsmen of Gor, pp209

The unowned just as the owned kajira should also seek to train herself, keep herself free of harm, preserving the property that she will one day become for her future owner.

Keeping ones eye firmly fixed on the goal of every kajira; to one day become a true love slave for thier owner. To be utterly possessed, truely owned in all ways. She must be prepared for the moment, the moment she becomes "collared" in many ways.

To grow and learn, to seek spiritual and intelectual training as well as the physical, to become her owners very dream of truth and bueaty.

The kajira should: Never dull or boreing, She should be inventive, erudite, enticing, aluring, and beguileing. All this She must become and more. For her slavery shall one day be in total and her owner will want nothing less than her "all".

"One of the pleasant things about owning a slave," I said, "is the opportunity to converse with her, to listen to her, to hear her express herself, her feelings and ideas. One can learn much from a slave. Many slaves, like yourself, are highly intelligent. They can express themselves articulately, clearly, trenchantly, and lyrically. It is a great pleasure to talk with them. Then when one wishes," I said, "one puts them again on thier knees." Beasts of Gor, pp 203.

By Ragcozy: "And finally, with regard to the Gorean moral/ethical code, how do you deal with those in traditional society, most of whom have, shall we say, an, at best, distant relationship with the concepts of morals and ethics?"

Well Sir we live by the priciples of Truth, Honor, and Love in our household "respect" is literally everything. We cannot change the beliefs of others that do not cling as stringently to any ethical code. We can only live our lives and hope that others will find our way "The True Gorean Way" the one that most follows the principles set forth in the books; worthy of emulating or incorperating into thier own. Our way is of course not the only way. It is however the best one for us.

Thanku all for expressing such a detailed intrest in our views of what it means to be Gorean.

I hope you have found our views useful.

Your intellegent and honest curiosity is a re-freshing change from the ussual preconcepted inquirery we normally encounter.

[denuseri]

I believe what my owner is saying is that to "say one thing and do another" is hyprocracy.

We do not condone the current President's excuse for the invasion of Iraq. But we will not protest a victory in that war, we would not see our troops brought home in defeat or thier honor impinged by those that wish to use sophist rehtoric and work against them while saying they don't. My husband was a soldier for many years and see's such statements made by in previous wars as well as this one , as a blanket staement to condone the undermining of his brothers in arm's morale.

The analogy was used to point out that when one calls a book, such as the bible or the upandishads or the koran a load of "crap" or some such, that regaurdless of what they think they are saying to others; the believers of such a book are indeed being told that thier belifs are wrong, in effect that they are wrong.

By damyanti: "My specific question is...whats the difference between kajira and ("ordinary") bdsm slave/submissive...except for a few exotic names, some extra positions (and imaginative sf role play, for some)...I really don't see what the big deal is and how its different from the rest of the bdsm..."

Well damyanti,,, for the most part it isnt any different. Axcept perhaps as described bellow:

I would also like to point out that we have many scources for inspiration in addition to expouseing Gorean ways. When we came to this site; however, I saw allmost from day one, a certian level of "anti-gorean" attitude and disdain, some directed in a most hurtful manner directly to me in chat simply becuase i refered to myself as a kajira when asked "what i was", which after discussing with my owner we decided it must stem mainly from an appparent ignorance of what Gor is all about so:,

We are striving to educate people to the reality that being Gorean per-say is not in fact so different from other ways of practicing bdsm. We are trying to show people the bueaty of it, where too many before us have obfuscated or maligned it's message.

Alltough there are some things it is not about that many other perspectives find generally acceptable two examples of which being:

Sadisum and Ritual Practices:

Sadisum for instance goes against Gorean preceps. Pain is not used soely for it's own sake, more so as a tool to garner and further submission.

To harm ones slave simply to please your own whim shows a severe lack of disipline on the dominants part and is considered by goreans to be unussually cruel or "perverted" and unnatural. One does not damage one's most prized possession in such a way without being considered a fool. A gorean master must be under just as much if not more disipline than the slave.

Thier is a stronger emphasis placed on rituals than in some circles.
For instance:

When I preform the ritual of "Obedience" it is perhaps one of the most important and symbolic conditions of my servitude in the Gorean custom and i am honnored to have the previlage to do so, every time I am called upon to preform it, it is a "big" deal.

Here is an example of the ritual to clairify what i am saying:

(Regardless of what ever position i was in, i gracefully move to kneel before my owner and streatch forth sliding unto my belly placeing the side of my face on the ground just infront of his feet, my hands to eaither side of my head (palms up), my tail will be rather high as i keep my lower legs where they were, arching my back.

i then silently plead with my trembeling body perhaps softely mewing my eyes looking up at Him in adoration, when and if he chooses to acknoledge me, i tentativly reach forth and guilde His right foot to rest upon my head and neck and place my hands behind my back with the wrists crossed as if bound

This is the sacred ritual of female obedience, beneath his full wieght i would be crushed, it is symbolic of more than just my free submission to him, it is a proffering of my very life to his will,

the signifigance is not only the physical aspects of his greater strength, but the mental and spiritual relationship between a Master and his kajira, under the full wieght of his dominance i would easily be crushed like a flower by a fist,

in placing my total trust , love and devotion in him, i have crossed the line between being a submissive and entered that of a full pleasure slave bound by my Masters will, i am his property and completely at his mercy,....

............................ in the preformance of this ritual of full obedience before him i am truely "being kajira").

We are not saying other ways are wrong or lack anything for those involved. We are not saying they lack importance for the people that practice them.What we are saying is there is a much more spiritual aspect to the "Gorean Way" than most would give it credit.

[damyanti]

I never had prejudice against Goreans...I never even knew such a thing (prejudice) existed. Then again, my knowledge about it stems from sites of couples a lot such as yourself, some stories and googling John Norman. I didn't hear of Second Life prior to coming here.

Honestly, from what I have seen I did liken them a lot to trekkies, because I didn't think it was plausible to fully and sincerely live such a lifestyle in our modern world.

I did enjoy the stories very much.

As for people attacking you identifying yourself as kajira...I always thought that (word) sounded so cool!!!

[orchidsoul]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the spirituality of it all. It certainly has a large element of spirituality, perhaps pronounced by the ritualistic ways. Either way, I'm getting quite a lesson here and I thank you and Kuskovian (Yes, I finally spelled it right this time! Sorry about that)

You've mentioned between this thread and others about being aware "how your body looks from different angles" and presenting it to be most pleasing. Would you mind elaborating on that a little?

With the lack of sounding ignorant, is it along the lines of tall and proper posture, sucking in stomachs, pronouncing your bosom, and perhaps holding your legs in fashions that make them appear the sleekest and sexiest?

I'm thinking this is knowledge any lady can benefit from