american empire

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

According to the CIA World Factbook the United States form of government is "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition". Pretty much touches all the bases of our government.

Note: I use that website for reference fairly regularly for a variety of subjects, check it out sometime. It takes the Joe Friday approach to information, "Just the facts, nothing but the facts, ma'am". https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ook/index.html

The government and to a large extent the people of the U.S reacted to 9/11 as this and many other countries have in the past; a willingness to trade civil rights and individual freedoms for security. The time right after 9/11 was chaos, fear was rampant. While anyone that has read other political threads that I've commented on can attest that I'm a long way from a Bush/Cheney supporter, I can't fault the decisions made in the immediacy of post-9/11 in the actual interest of public safety. Now having said that, the callous use of 9/11 to further erode individual rights, i.e. Habeas Corpus, trial by jury, Miranda, etc troubles me. The relatively recent revelation that the eaves-dropping ability has been used to entertain the technicians by listening to personal conversations of American citizens and the admission by the FBI of their agents abusing the warrentless wire-tapping laws, the revealed abuse of the Watch List on citizens who fly by putting political opponents on the list, show how quickly what appeared to be needed constrictions of constitutional rights are abused.

The case of Ali al-Marri, a Qatar citizen that was studying at Bradley University and is being held in the Charleston Navy brig without any charges except his being denoted by the administration as an "enemy combatant" without any offer of proof should be watched very carefully. Is he a terrorist bent on the destruction of the U.S.? We don't know. He's a student in the U.S. subject to the laws of the U.S. Doesn't he deserve the right of trial by jury? If we are going to err should it be on the side of letting a guilty man go free or sending an innocent man to prison? By a single executive order anyone can be held without access to counsel, without facing his accuser, without a Grand Jury indictment, without judicial review, without Habeas Corpus. That scares me.

[Thorne]

The government and to a large extent the people of the U.S reacted to 9/11 as this and many other countries have in the past; a willingness to trade civil rights and individual freedoms for security. The time right after 9/11 was chaos, fear was rampant.

I don't like that comment. I agree with your assessment of trading civil rights and freedoms for security, and indeed, post 9/11 was chaos. But other than those people living in NYC and DC, was fear that pronounced? Oh, certainly, politicians were terrified! A plane hitting the pentagon, one apparently targetting the White House? Their own lives might be on the line! Failing to act on intelligence information? What about their careers! They were certainly afraid. Personally, while horrified by the acts and the results of those acts, I can't say that my level of fear went any higher just because of 9/11. And that despite the fear-mongering of the American (primarily) press and TV news media.

...I can't fault the decisions made in the immediacy of post-9/11 in the actual interest of public safety. Now having said that, the callous use of 9/11 to further erode individual rights, i.e. Habeas Corpus, trial by jury, Miranda, etc troubles me. The relatively recent revelation that the eaves-dropping ability has been used to entertain the technicians by listening to personal conversations of American citizens and the admission by the FBI of their agents abusing the warrentless wire-tapping laws, the revealed abuse of the Watch List on citizens who fly by putting political opponents on the list, show how quickly what appeared to be needed constrictions of constitutional rights are abused.

I'm with you on this one! "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

That scares me.

And me as well. Far more than the threat of further terrorist actions.

[leo9]

I don't like that comment. I agree with your assessment of trading civil rights and freedoms for security, and indeed, post 9/11 was chaos. But other than those people living in NYC and DC, was fear that pronounced?

Speaking as an outside observer, my expereince was that my US friends were not just frightened but literally hysterical. Any attempt to reason with them, to suggest that they might be over-reacting or lashing out at the wrong target, was met with reactions on the level of "WHY DO YOU HATE US? YOU'RE ON THEIR SIDE!"

It wasn't universal by any means, but the impression from this side of the pond was that a large percentage of the population simply lost their marbles.

[Thorne]

It wasn't universal by any means, but the impression from this side of the pond was that a large percentage of the population simply lost their marbles.

I don't know. Maybe it was mostly people from the NYC area, and the DC area, as I said. I'm sure that there were some people who frightened, and some even now who won't get on a plane for fear of it being hijacked. But I can't think of a single person I know who was "terrified" by the whole thing. Sure, we were upset, and certainly concerned about the potential for more incidents, but except for the government crack downs on our civil liberties, I can't think of one tangible effect from 9/11. Aside from the financial impacts, of course. And naturally, those who lost friends or family are more affected. I would venture to guess that most of those hysterical people you mentioned were probably in this category, having lived through the ordeal directly. Their reaction is understandable.

I do remember in the hours following the Oklahoma City bombing that many people, including the media, were very quick to blame Arab terrorists, but I have always been of the opinion that anything the Arab fanatics can do, homegrown fanatics can do. In that case I was proved right, and I felt the same way about 9/11 until the evidence started coming in about the Muslims who boarded the planes.

Don't jump to conclusions, and don't judge all Americans by the handful who may have, indeed, panicked.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Speaking as an outside observer, my experience was that my US friends were not just frightened but literally hysterical. Any attempt to reason with them, to suggest that they might be over-reacting or lashing out at the wrong target, was met with reactions on the level of "WHY DO YOU HATE US? YOU'RE ON THEIR SIDE!"

It wasn't universal by any means, but the impression from this side of the pond was that a large percentage of the population simply lost their marbles.

I didn't observe such reactions but I was not in NY or Washington so can't speak for them. I didn't see panic.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

I don't like that comment. I agree with your assessment of trading civil rights and freedoms for security, and indeed, post 9/11 was chaos. But other than those people living in NYC and DC, was fear that pronounced? Oh, certainly, politicians were terrified! A plane hitting the pentagon, one apparently targeting the White House? Their own lives might be on the line! Failing to act on intelligence information? What about their careers! They were certainly afraid. Personally, while horrified by the acts and the results of those acts, I can't say that my level of fear went any higher just because of 9/11. And that despite the fear-mongering of the American (primarily) press and TV news media.

.

I was on the west coast in an airport when this came down. Long story that's not different from a lot of others but I ended up driving across the country from California to South Carolina. I listened to a lot of talk radio and to a lot of news. I stopped each night and chatted with people in hotels and restaurants. Fear was rampant. While I didn't observe anyone running around like their hair was on fire, there was a great deal of anxiety and unease immediately after the attack. The entire air travel system shut down, guards on chemical plants and nuclear plants, etc. that good old all-American practice of price gouging worked on Mr and Mrs America because of fear. Anyone who lived in the U.S on 9/11 and wasn't afraid for their family members, friends, co-workers, or themselves is in a very small minority.

Fear isn't a bad thing. Panic is bad, fear can keep you alive. I've been shot, I've been blown up, I've ambushed and been ambushed. Fear has worked very well for me.

[Thorne]

I was on the west coast in an airport when this came down. Long story that's not different from a lot of others but I ended up driving across the country from California to South Carolina. I listened to a lot of talk radio and to a lot of news. I stopped each night and chatted with people in hotels and restaurants. Fear was rampant. While I didn't observe anyone running around like their hair was on fire, there was a great deal of anxiety and unease immediately after the attack. The entire air travel system shut down, guards on chemical plants and nuclear plants, etc. that good old all-American practice of price gouging worked on Mr and Mrs America because of fear. Anyone who lived in the U.S on 9/11 and wasn't afraid for their family members, friends, co-workers, or themselves is in a very small minority.

Fear isn't a bad thing. Panic is bad, fear can keep you alive. I've been shot, I've been blown up, I've ambushed and been ambushed. Fear has worked very well for me.

I can understand your point. If you were travelling, or knew someone who was travelling, I can imagine being worried, even fearful. If you live in a large city, one which might be considered a target for a terrorist act, a certain amount of fear is understandable. I will admit, I was concerned that there might be additional attacks, but I can't say that I was afraid for myself or my family. I just couldn't see us being in the bullseye.

There are probably a few people here who remember the 50's and early 60's, when the threat of nuclear war was extremely high. I remember having to practice diving under our school desks and covering our heads with our arms as air raid drills. And each Saturday at noon, all the air raid sirens in the area would blast for a minute's test. (I can remember thinking that if the Russian's attacked at noon no one would know it was a real air raid.) I suppose that growing up with that threat has made me less fearful of other threats. I also grew up not far from Newark, NJ during the height of the race riots in the 60's. Perhaps that also works to temper my fear reflex.

I take it from your last paragraph that you were in the military, or maybe in Newark. I have never been in positions such as you describe. I can well believe that one would develop a fine sense of caution and awareness, and even fear, as survival mechanisms. And I am concerned about the prospect of terrorists launching a nuclear or biological attack against this country or other countries. But I'm with you: panic is more often than not counterproductive. And blaming everyone with a Middle East background for the acts of a few fanatics is also counterproductive. Yet that is what panic will do.