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"It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
Ahh thanku for finding the quote, its one of my favorites.
I see you have taken that word "force" from that quote, but out of context. That or I misunderstood your motive.
"Forced to acknowlegde" is a far cry from the type of forcing I thought you were sugesting Goreans expoused.
I have not met any yet who once they came to embrace thier nature in such fashion as described in that passage that did not joyfully thank thier Master for showing it to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
What in God's name are you talking about?
I believe you had taken the quote out of context, as denuseri said. Here is the entire quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by E.C. Holland
Also, if you noticed the scene was after the Forkbeard sent Gunnhild to the platform and she won. Then Bera, the Blue Tooth's Woman, had said that it was shameful.Quote:
In the lowering of the woman, of course, a common consequence of her helplessness in the arms of a powerful male, her surrenderings, her being forced to submit, she finds, incredibly to some perhaps, her freedom, her ecstasy, her fulfilment, her exaltation, her joy; in the Gorean mind this matter is simple; it is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood; no longer is she a sexless, competitive pseudoman; she is then, as she was not before, female; she then finds herself, perhaps for the first time, clearly differentiated from the male, and vulnerably, joyfully, complementary to him; she has, of course, no choice in this matter; it is not permitted her; collared, she submits; I know of no group of women as joyful, as spontaneous, as loving and vital, as healthy and beautiful, as excited, as free in their delights and emotions, as Gorean slave girls; it is true they must live under the will of men, and must fear them, and the lash of their whips, but, in spite of these things, they walk with a sensuous beauty and pride; they know themselves owned; but they wear their collars with a shameless audacity, a joy, an insolent pride that would scandalize and frighten the bored, depressed, frustrated women of Earth. (Marauders of Gor page 155 - 6
I hope this helps you out some.Quote:
The slave girls groveled at her feet. Slave girls fear free women muchly. It is almost as if there were some unspoken war between them, almost as if they might be mortal enemies. In such a war, or such an enmity, of course, the slave girl is completely at the mercy of the free person; she is only slave. One of the great fears of a slave girl is that she will be sold to a woman. Free women treat their female slaves with incredible hatred and cruelty. Why this is I do not know. Some say it is because they, the free women, envy the girls their collars and wish that they, too, were collared, and at the complete mercy of masters.
Free women view the platform with stern disapproval; on it, female beauty is displayed for the inspection of men; this, for some reason, outrages them; perhaps they are furious because they cannot display their own beauty, or that they are not themselves as beautiful as women found fit, by lusty men with discerning eyes, for slavery; it is difficult to know what the truth is in such matters; these matters are further complicated, particularly in the north, by the conviction among free women that free women are above such things as sex, and that only low and loose girls, and slaves, are interested in such matters; free women of the north regard themselves as superior to sex; many are frigid, at least until carried off and collared; they often insist that, even when they have faces and figures that drive men wild, that it is their mind on which he must concentrate his attentions; some free men, to their misery, and the perhaps surprising irritation of the female, attempt to comply with this imperative; they are fools enough to believe what such women claim is the truth about themselves; they should listen instead to the dreams and fantasies of women, and recall, for their instruction, the responses of a free woman, once collared, squirming in the chains of a bond-maid. These teach us truths which many women dare not speak and which, by others, are denied, interestingly, with a most psychologically revealing hysteria and vehemence. “No woman,” it is said, “knows truly what she is until she has worn the collar.” Some free women apparently fear sex because they feel it lowers the woman. This is quite correct. In few, if any, human relationships is there perfect equality. The subtle tensions of dominance and submission, universal in the animal world, remain ineradicably in our blood; they may be thwarted and frustrated but, thwarted and frustrated, they will remain. It is the nature of the male, among the mammals, to dominate, that of the female to submit. The fact that humans have minds does not cancel the truths of the blood, but permits their enrichment and enhancement, their expression in physical and psychological ecstasies far beyond the reach of simpler organisms; the female slave submits to her master in a thousand dimensions, in each of which she is his slave, in each of which he dominates her.
“Shameful!” cried the free woman. (Marauders of Gor, pp 154 - 5)
Rick,
I'm grateful for the extended quotation, but I'm not sure how you think it changes the context of my questions. The operative word continues to be "forced." What I want to know is whether, according to the followers of Norman, there are some women it is permissible to FORCE to submit, because it will result in their fulfillment.
It's clear to me how Norman feels on this issue--at least, how he feels within the context of his fictional world. What is still unclear to me, even after several direct questions on the subject, is whether those who here in the real world consider themselves "Goreans" believe that some women benefit by being forced to submit against their wills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.C. Holland
EC,
The reason why I said what I did is becasue all too many people take a quote and twist it to fit them. As UbarLuther said in his Gorean Education Scrolls (Scroll 81: Using Book Quotes)
He also went on to say that a single quote out of the over 10,000 pages of information from the 26 (soon to be 27) Gorean seriesmay not be sufficient to prove anything.Quote:
It is very common for people to use a quote from the Gorean novels to support a proposition. Yet, a quote along may not guarantee the validity of a proposition
He also came up with some guidelines in how to analyze a quote in an attempt to determine and enhance its credibility and applicability, but not the ONLY path to their destination.
- We should determine whether the quote is even applicable to the proposition we seek to prove
- We should determine whether the quote appears ambiguous or not
- We should examine who is speaking in the quote
- We need to determine the context of the quote
- We should try to locate other quotes that deal with the subject of the quote in question
- We must be sure to view most quotes through the eyes of a Gorean and not an Earth person
- We should consider whether a quote is an example of behavior or a more general statement about that behavior
- It can be important to acertain which book a quote comes from
- We should also consider the situation where there are no quotes that specifically prohibit something on Gor
I had noticed in my own research (and I only have the first 15 books plus book 26 in book form but all of the others on my computer) that Norman had changed his mind on certain things in the latter books and that they are more authoritative as they are the ones that underwent more thought and organization. I would recommend looking through the novels to find more quotes of what you are trying to bring forth, especialy since there might some quotes which contradict what you are trying to say.
Rick,
I'm not "trying to say" anything. I'm only asking a question. This thread was started to discuss the Gorean philosophy, so I expected to be able to get a straightforward answer to this pretty basic question. Or, if the issue is truly so much more complex than it seems, I'd think some of those who allege to find the philosophy of these books so personally meaningful might offer an educated guess.
I suppose that's not going to happen. Have a nice day.
EC,
I apologize if it came out wrong. I was just saying that there are some people who take quotes and twist them to say what THEY think. I rather enjoyed the conversation and am always up to speak about the books.
<<has allready answered the question straightforwardly like three or is it four times now
<<is also very familuar with the preconcived allegations type questions (especially since the majority of the questions I field are of that type).
There is (as stated numerous times before in this thread) a difference between how things are done on Gor (the fictional setting of the books) and how things are done here in our own society and Norman has been been rather clear about it himself as previously posted.
Yes the word in question taken from the text may be "forced" but I ask you forced by what, when, how and or who?
It can be infered perhaps that it is the dominants responsibility to use some degree of force to coax submission forth. (the amount of which vastly differs between the fictional setting and the reality of it in real life here)
It certianly helps in most regards to have a strong willed Master , but it doesnt remove the free will of the submissive to choose in the slightest nor does it allieveate any of the legal trappings of our politically correct world.
Here in our world today, (as opposed to the setting of the books) it is illegal to engadge in non-consensual practices.
That freedom of choice is also possessed by the characters in the books (alltough thier options of choice are vastly reduced), nor does it remove that same choice to sumbmit or not, from our own lives.
If you think that earthbound philosophy practicing Goreans believe that all women should be taken out and physically forced to submit than you are pretty much missing the forest for the trees.
Just bumping the thread for those new to the site who have shown an intrest in Gor that Ive seen around here of late who may not have been aware of the thread or its counter part in the submissives couch on being kajira. Please feel free to participate!
This is interesting, and from the many quotes provided I can easily see that we (Master and I) are not cut out to be Gorean in terms of philosophy. He told me over New Year's that he thought I was becoming Gorean in all but name. There are a few major differences though, revolving around feminism and individuals determining their own roles, not based on gender. But still, it's very interesting to see what it is all about.