Gorean Philosophies

Thanks so much for that goldendawn.

You are very correct, we did want to discuss more than just our own way of doing bdsm and incorperating the philosophies of the books.

As with all philosophies one must be carfeful what they incorperate into thier own lives.

We believe the books and Norman are pretty clear whats acceptable on earth and what is not. One principle from the books we have chosen to emulate is a Gorean respect for the laws of a place. As such we believe one should respect the law. This means one doesnt go about abusing or fully enslaveing anyone, and by enslavement i do mean chattel slavery not the pc bdsm style one that most sane people practice. Additionally we dont believe one should be wantonly cruel or malisious with thier submissive.

TPE is allways a sticky wicket that is all too easily turned from something bueatiful into something ugly. To use somthing from another philosophy: Lets look at Aristotles golden mean. One extreme of TPE would have the submissive in dire straights lacking even the will to think for herself etc, let alone move. The other extreme would be complete and utter freedom or worse the submissive in charge whilst the dom cowers in the oposite extreme. Aristotle said its the middle ground that is best for mankind to follow ergo the "golden mean". Which is what we try to do and what we believe Norman is telling us as human beings is the best way for men and women to exist in harmony.

I am unfortunate in that my first experience with it was allmost my last as it very nearly cost me my life or worse and i am still recovering from it as it was certianly on the far end of the TPE to point of truely being criminal. (i was very lucky to have survived it and be saved by my owner from it)yet becuase my second and current TPE relationship i am in now is a very wonderful one I am very happy. I work , I go to school, I am under his will, yet i am under my own voalition in following his will while out and about. In effect I am allowed to thrive.

I am not saying it is wrong for some people, only that we dont believe the books even remotely promote such a type of total enslavment as especially for people on earth, gorean or otherwise.

One can never warn people enough to be safe and careful in thier dealings. Trust is a vital commodity, especially in bdsm. Too many would be dominants embrace a false sence of sadism to the exclusion of the responsibility that is inhierent with assuming dominion over a submissive.

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Originally Posted by goldendawn

Ragoczy speaks of there not being literal slaves today from the view point of a Dominant who is true. i understand this and if everyone in the lifestyle were true there would be no need for warnings.

In my own service as kajira, i submitted to total power exchange. i did not work outside of His home; i did not meet anyone He didn't approve of first; i was not permitted outside the residence without Him in attendance. The reference that slaves today may call 911 or leave of their own volition is a valid point, if one can manage to get to a phone. (a little difficult if under extreme discipline when the phone is disengaged and one is tied extended periods of time and under watch the rest of the time). There are always lapses occassionally and that is how i left of my own free will. To say that slaves today are not literal shows a bit of naivete. Some situations, yes it is true. Other situations, other lifestyle choices do create literal slaves in every sense of the word. Can a slave choose to leave? Absolutely, just as in history slaves ran away when they got the chance, just as in the books, some slaves escaped. Is it always a matter of saying "Thanks, this was fun but i'm leaving now" and walk out the door... in a perfect world, yes it would be. Todays "slave" does make a choice at the beginning to accept a position as slave. So in that sense, yes it is consentual and that makes it a fantasy to begin with and after a time in service the slavery can become quite real and literal. So this is where todays slavery is different. A first choice and then sometimes, no choice.

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What I meant to convey is that "slaves" in a normal, healthy BDSM-context are not literal slaves -- not that literal slaves don't exist today or that the BDSM concept of slavery could not be abused. In a normal, healthy BDSM-context, there's an element of fantasy in the Master/slave relationship because there's ongoing consent.

In my opinion, what you describe crosses the line from normal-healthy into abuse, and I in no way wish to dismiss or diminish what you and others have gone through.

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Originally Posted by Ragoczy

In my opinion, what you describe crosses the line from normal-healthy into abuse, and I in no way wish to dismiss or diminish what you and others have gone through.

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Well said. The people in this community, especially, have to know where the line between healthy and abusive is drawn. Too many from outside the BDSM community consider anything to do with it as abuse, regardless of consent. There can be no justification for abuse.

Well I for one am all for the (cracks my knuckles) "abusing" or worse; of those creatans that call themselves dominants who have tarnished the precious gift of trust imparted by a submissive unto them.

Dominion comes with the privelege of taking responsibility for the life of another.

One should be ever vigilent that it should never be abused.

Especially by one's self.

could not agree more big k, if ever there was a post that i felt 100% aligned to it is yours, well done fella, good to see you, though we dont benefit nearly enough from your wisdom and presence around the forums.

Hope all is well with you and that angel of yours, see you around

Which brings us to the princilpe of protection and responsibility.

Something my owner so obviously takes very seriously. (which is a good thing or i literally wouldnt be here today)

Its quite simple really:

I give my life to him becuase I know he gives his life for me.

@Ragoczy

I sure wish I had written what you did last week. hahaha

It has always been a struggle for me to try and express the ideas you just laid out for everyone in such a wonderful way.

Thanks

Anothers views on Gor
The following quotation is taken from

"Ramblings of a kajira"

"Emma's essays, stories, and life experiences."


It is a good example of how I feel about Gorean Philosophies as well in it's practical applications to my own life.

Here is her view in full:

"What is Gorean?

To me, Gor has many different things you can "take" from the books. People always seem to ask me what it means, and I find myself having a difficult time answering specifically what "I" think it means. It means something a little different to everyone I think. It's a philosophy; it's a way to live your life. It's not role play, it's not about fantasy. There is a message behind the science fiction. It's more than Master/slave relationships.

There are over 26 books currently out, another one out due in December 2008 with at least one more planned for release in the future. The author is a philosophy teacher who's spent his whole life studying/writing/reading philosophy. His basic principals are taken from different societies that were present on earth. Such as Greek and Roman.

He wanted to show his version of a utopian society. He threw in some Socrates and other philosophers who had wisdom that he admired. It was more than sex. It was more than a science fiction. It is a way of life. There is a message behind the series of books and this is what it means to me.

Being what you are is simple. If you are not a tree, don't pretend you are a tree. If you are a warrior, be a warrior. If you are not a warrior, don't pretend you are. If you are a dominant woman, be a dominant woman. If you are a slave girl, be a slave girl. Be feminine if you are female, masculine if you are male.

Be what your "nature" intended you to be. It can deviate from the norm and still be "what" you are. It doesn't mean its wrong, pretending to be something you are not is "wrong" if you are going to be "what" you are. I don't believe people are made equal. They may have equal value and worth but we are not "all the same". Everyone is unique and individual.

Being who you are goes along the lines of the previous paragraph. It is possible to change "caste" or "identity" but many feel value their caste and heritage. It's a part of their identity and while they can raise or lower it, they'd rather just be who they are. People can be born with an innate sense of need for freedom, or slavery.

Some are naturally more dominant than others. Some would rather die then submit to servitude or slavery, while others openly embrace it and desire it secretly inside their hearts. The only responsibility a person might have is to their Owner, while their Owner wants the responsibility of property, and service, and control. Being who you are is also being true to your nature.There's a natural order to things. I feel this is valid. This doesn't lesson a person's worth as a human being, but it is true that not everyone is created equal.

Some are more intelligent, some are stronger, some are prettier, and some have special needs or health problems. This doesn't make them less valuable as a human or mean they don't have skills to offer or something they can do in life, but they are not equal or the same. A seven foot tall man is not the same as a five foot tall man.

They are not created "equally" even if both are human males. On Gor, not every man is a warrior. Some are shop keepers, some are slavers, and some are warriors. They all play a part in society, but they do not all do the "same things". Their value to society is worth something, but they are not "equal". Not all women are meant to be slaves.

Some are created for that role and wouldn't thrive otherwise. Not all men desire to be Owners. But I do feel a person should be treated according to how they are, who they are and what their nature dictates. I do believe there is a genetic disposition that is more likely to make a female naturally submissive or eager to please in some ways.

However, again this goes back to the whole being "true" to one's self, and their Nature. There is deviation from the norm and that should be tolerated/accepted too if one is to be Gorean in belief.

The strong are more likely to get ahead in life, or in general. Intellectual strength, emotional strength, strength of will, and physical strength can all play parts in advancement in society structures. That does not mean that those who deviate from the norm don't play a role in society, they do, and it just as valid, though VERY different and not "equal" or "the same."

Adaptability is how people survive. On Gor… and on earth. Adapting to the environment around you doesn't mean you can't be "true" to yourself or who you really are, instead it means adapting to fit in enough to survive and thrive with the environment around you. You can still be yourself, be true to ones nature while still being in a society that tries to constrict personalities and try to make everyone "the" same.

I believe Gorean philosophy is a live and let live. They settle their disputes with swords, or games of kaissa (the earth variety of this game would be chess) or other games of skill or intellect. There is no sneaky, under handed manipulation or deceit. People are just themselves.
Doing what you will and what pleases you.

This is a key part of Gorean philosophy. Everyone on Gor is expected to be self-fulfilled and achieve a level of lasting happiness's and selfishness based on their own desires to do so and skills to achieve it. There is no remorse or pity for those who cannot find a way to do it.

A free woman can find a way to own a business, or even be an Ubara (an earth version of a queen) if she is determined enough to make a good match. Even a slave is expected to find happiness and fulfillment in their life within the bonds of their Master's slave chain.

There is always ability for bettering your life, cause, or situation if you want it bad enough and are determined enough to get it. Personal responsibility; even within the bounds of society's restrictions or a physical chain on your throat as a slave girl you can achieve a level of happiness and success if you want it. There is always a way to better your status and life if you desire it.
Being responsible for one's actions is a huge part of Gorean philosophy and belief.

If a warrior on Gor makes the choice to draw ones sword, he is willing to take the consequences and repercussions for his actions. If a slave girl refuses a command, she takes responsibility knowing she will be punished. If an Ubar decides to go to war, he takes responsibility for his army. There is no reason on earth we can't take personal responsibility for the choices we make.....

.....The personal responsibility for one's own actions is one of the reasons I have so much respect for my Owner, and he for me, even though I am just a slave. When a slave submits to a collar and accepts their bonds, he or she is expected to acknowledge and accept what that means. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Do whatever you want, but realize there are repercussions for anything you do and be willing to take personal responsibility for your choices, Free or slave. You are responsible for yourself, your behavior, and your actions.

If you fuck up, say you fuck up. Don't make excuses, don't lie. Don't blame it on someone else, or age. There is nothing more rewarding, or freeing in life then taking the power of personal responsibility and accepting it.

There is no point in lying, beating around the bush, or trying to deceive or manipulate. Life is not fair. If you don't like it, do something about it.Anyone who is stronger will naturally assume a position of dominance, be it mental or physical, over those weaker or less willing to match themselves in human dominance struggles.

This includes slaves over less strong people (emotionally, physically, mentally or otherwise), free or owned. If you are not strong enough to be in control, So what? It's not a fault, it's a personality. There are genes that make up a person. That will play a part, so will the environment they grow up in.

Some genes however will make a person more likely to exhibit certain traits than other. Or react to the same situation in a different way than a weaker person. Even slaves can be "strong" and often need a strong Master because of this. It doesn't make them less submissive, but who in the world wants to submit to a weak and egotistical Master?

Being Gorean is simple. It is what you make of it.

I wish you well."


I think she sums it up pretty well myself

the books very interresting (even though i am a sub) i do have a few qusetions i want to ask

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Originally Posted by denuseri

"A hierarchy of dominion" in which the responsibility of each cast is to seek perfection in thier given craft,
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Dose that mean that their are many types of masters and slaves....or did i miss something

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Originally Posted by denuseri

The powerful dominant males of Gorean society are presented as cruel yet fair, certianly not malicious. Such malicious acts, perversions, crimes,etc.. in fact all our societal woes are presented to be the direct result of our emasculation of male dominance here on earth, brought on by the advent of certian technologies and political mascications.
.

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It would be silly to ask is they are female masters and male slaves but im still asking anyways lol
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by denuseri

I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

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and what is wrong with Conan the Barbarian...I love the wrintings of Robert E. Howard and i think he is underrated lol and what is second life ??? lol

denuseri, dont let these people who dont understand gor get you down:wave: everyone is odd or different in this world if we were not it be a dull life would it not

I dont know about different types of Masters other than cultural differences presented in the various fictional races of the books, but the types and functions of slaves were portrayed to be many and varied on a catagorical level. Every thing from a kitchen girl, to pleasure or love slave (yes some slaves are trainned specifically to be love slaves and there is a difference between them and a pleasure slave)

For instance some in the bdsm comunity say not all submissives are slaves but all slaves are submisives.

For a Gorean one may say not all pleasures slaves are love slaves, but all love slaves are indeed pleasure slaves.

Though any slave may also work in the kitchen depending on her owners wishes.


And yes there are Domme's and male slaves as well. We even have a real life Gorean Domme thats a member of the site.

There is nothing wrong with Howards work. The Conan refference is speaking about the online virtual reality 3d interactive graphics comunity's (ie: second life) so called "Goreans" that dont nessesarally practice the philosophy of Gor in real life so much as play "fuck the slave girl" on the computer and generally comport themselves in a barbaric manner, who have contributed to the bad reputation many real life philosophy practicing Goreans in the vanilla and bdsm worlds too often are asscoiated with.

:wave:

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Originally Posted by denuseri

[B][COLOR="Pink"]yes some slaves are trainned specifically to be love slaves and there is a difference between them and a pleasure slave

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I hate to sound like a dullered but can you please give eamples of what would be the difference between a love and pleaseure slave? :)

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Originally Posted by denuseri

[B][COLOR="Pink"]
And yes there are Domme's and male slaves as well. We even have a real life Gorean Domme thats a member of the site.

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cool :d but it seems that a Gorean domme would not be the norm in this lifestyle... is that ture or am i off the mark on this one?

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Originally Posted by denuseri

so called "Goreans" that dont nessesarally practice the philosophy of Gor in real life so much as play "fuck the slave girl" on the computer and generally comport themselves in a barbaric manner, who have contributed to the bad reputation many real life philosophy practicing Goreans in the vanilla and bdsm worlds too often are asscoiated with.

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It really is sad how few rouge people always cause either a pratice or group to get a very bad name. Anyways thanks for anwsering my first post.

A pleasure slave's primary focus is on the giving of pleasure to those that make or would make "use" of her.

The love slave however has the singular devotion to an inividual owner that exceeds that of any other (slave or free) as her utter soul emcompassing purpose in life. If she is pleasing or gives pleasure to others it is only becuase it also pleases her owner for her to do so.

but I describe being a love slave much better in this other thread, here is the link to it:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=15978

Alltough Norman's fictional world of Gor is most deffinetly a male dominated society where even the freest of women are expected to yield to the men, he does in many places present female dominants, in fact according to the books slaves dont make up a very large portion of thier society as a whole. Dommes are no more plentiful there than here.

Gorean women are strong willed creatures, we do not submit easily and if we do so at all willingly it is only to those that we sence to be more dominant than ourselves.

thank you for explaining the two types of slaves

May i ask ; so if a slave can willingly submit to a a preson who is stornger then themselves. Then in theroy can a slave own another slave ( who is weaker then he/she)?

Often times a slave is put in charge over other slaves.

When I was first introduced to bondage it was under the tutalage of a "First Girl" I was in both theory and practice her slave as much as her Owner's.

So if one wishes to submit to another why not.

Ownership however encompassess somthing far more serious.

Ownership for us is beyound merely being a dominant or a Master or having a submissive kneel before you.

It asumes a matle of great responsibility for the life of another human being in total and requires a much higher level of devotion.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

a matle of great responsibility for the life of another human being in total and requires a much higher level of devotion.

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What types of responsibility do owners have to their slaves ?

This is really just a summary and kinda only touches the tip of the iceberg but here goes:

Well for one he protects me.

And not just from threats of the physical world like burgulars etc.

When I fall into subspace and am no longer really fully aware whats going on, he doesnt let me be harmed. And when I am in sub-drop he helps me back out. (only a fool wants to damage his most prized possession)

He guides me in my submission. He teaches me how to please him. How to fully satify his needs as well as my own.

He provides for me.

He respects me and my love for him.

He trusts me.

He comforts me.

He holds me under strict disipline so that I thrive.

He fufills me by holding dominion over me.

He tends me like the most precious garden in the world.

He "owns" me body, mind and soul.

i understand; it actually sound very sweet and very loving so why do goreans get the bad rap ?

Read the thread from the begining (page one)and you will see.

Thank you for bringing this up, denuseri. I know that when I was sent this link back in 2006 by one who was also in Gor I was told to not bring up the fact I was in Gor lest I be made a laughingstock and one who doeas not take this seriously. There was an article on this topic called Chain Gang that salon.com had done and I do not know if it is still on that site or not but it is good reading too

lol, too true too true RickBulow74, heck ...

When I first was going to join this site my Owner (who taught me most all I know of being Groean btw) even said I may want to very carefully consider weather or not I should use the title of kajira when refering to myself.

He said it had been his experience that most of the BDSM crowd would look upon me with disdain or as being some kind of freak or wanna be.

I even vacilated a few times in frustration becuase of the way I was outright attacked at first (amazing but true, right in open chat, not to mention nasty pm's), I actually changed my status on my profile and allmost left the place for good. Others however embraced me ,some even were closet Goreans themselves, just unwilling to brave the guantlet, some confided in or praised me for standing up.

So despite my misgivings I barrowed some strength from the others (His Blizzard especially {special thanks to you my elder sister} who showed me being Gorean was what mattered in my heart and not what others might say or think) and recieved my Owners support and blessing to stay and be proud of what and who I am.

Mabey even put some of that "Ahhhhhhh! back in La Kajira"

so let me get this stairt the gorean life stlye is a lifestyle in which the owner and slave are bounded to each other ( which both duties to be followed by both slave and owner). Yet, because of a few odd balls and misundestanding it is hated... am i on the right track

Pretty much, I know their are more than a few haters out there still, alltough most of them made their apperance in early on when the books were first published, proponents of feminism were among the number one detractors for various reasons.

But it's often the case that people all too easily fall into hate when it comes to something they don't really understand. Though hate is mabey a rather strong word, most just didn't understand it's core principles and assumed it was automatically about what it's primary detractors haranged against it unjustly.

And yes according to Gorean philosophical precepts every one dom/ sub or otherwise has a duty to preform to each other as well as themselves (as previously mentioned in the thread) in such a manner that is both true and honorable.

Ahh...

I am reading the first book in the Gor series...(yes, I am aware this isn't exactly a thread "on the books,") but.... I had to mention this. So, I am reading the beginning of the chapter with the spiders - I HATE SPIDERS - and...you will never freaking believe what was on the table next to me. A wolf spider. I almost freaking died.

It was being extremely crappy and not letting me smush it into a thousand little bits too, but I finally killed it with a hardcover book.

*Still shuddering.*

Okay sorry, back on topic.

LMAO Hopper

Hugs and Kissess Boo,

ps:and where did you find an actual book? or is it an e-book?

I ordered it from B&N. :) They said the books are printed on demand, not available until they are paid for.

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Originally Posted by hopperboo

I ordered it from B&N. :) They said the books are printed on demand, not available until they are paid for.

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that sucks but thanks for the info

Nah, it doesn't suck at all. I ordered this...not even a week ago and I got the book today.

Pretty sweet actually.

I am gonna start getting them ordered for my hubby, his collection was destroyed by a huricane

Ture, can i ask what is the first book

Sure thing sweetie,

They can be ordered online or from the store desk through Barnes & Noble and in most cases delievred right to your door.

Here is a list of the books:

John Norman's Chronicles of Gor in the order written

Tarnsman of Gor
Outlaw of Gor
Priest-Kings of Gor
Nomads of Gor
Assassin of Gor
Raiders of Gor
Captive of Gor
Hunters of Gor
Marauders of Gor
Tribesmen of Gor
Slave Girl of Gor
Beasts of Gor
Explorers of Gor
Fighting Slave of Gor
Rogue of Gor
Guardsman of Gor
Savages of Gor
Blood Brothers of Gor
Kajira of Gor
Players of Gor
Mercenaries of Gor
Dancer of Gor
Renegades of Gor
Vagabonds of Gor
Magicians of Gor
Witness of Gor

with the 27th book Prize of Gor due for release in December of 2008

Also by Norman

The Telnarian Histories

The Chieftain
The Captain
The King

Historical fiction

Time Slave
Ghost Dance

Nonfiction

Imaginative Sex

The Cognitivity Paradox: "An Inquiry Concerning the Claims of Philosophy" written as John Lange