Do you believe in miracles?

[ThisYouWillDo]

Tom

Maybe it's because the words came from the mouth of Judas and it is to be expected that an arch-villain like him would attack Christianity: they didn't take it seriously.

TYWD

[TomOfSweden]

Tom

Maybe it's because the words came from the mouth of Judas and it is to be expected that an arch-villain like him would attack Christianity: they didn't take it seriously.

TYWD

Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar is a bit different than "life of Christ" interpretations generally are. His is the voice of reason. What reason did he have to believe Jesus was the son of God? All he had was his word. Judas is the main narrator of the story. We're supposed to identify with Judas. So by coming from his lips, these words are intended to be the thoughts of the onlooker, which makes it so much stronger!

I'm sure that's why Judas is black. The director assumed that racist people are also the same dogmatic idiots who cannot reconcile the idea of reinterpretations of the Bible. By making Judas black, it'll go right over their narrow minded barely functioning heads. Maybe that's why nobody reacted. It's a theory.

I love it BTW. It's the singing and music. I'm not really interested in critique or attacks on Biblical myths. Why bother? Musicals rock!

Maybe I'm a screaming queen at heart... Maybe I'm so far into the closet I don't even notice I'm in it!

[TomOfSweden]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7d6fa5b5839854

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c6d8d43fa3d60e

Here's two reports linking belief in the paranormal, (like being a Christian for example) and witnessing miracles with predisposition for schizophrenia.

So if you've met God, you might want to get yourself checked.

For me it wasn't a surprise. Schizophrenics see things that aren't there and religious people see things, I'm convinced aren't there either. Sounds pretty similar, doesn't it?

[ThisYouWillDo]

I wondered why He and I are so alike!

[rabbit111]

There are miracles around us every day if only we take the time to notice. The things I feel and the joy that we experience in our lives every day is a miracle. Can you wander along a street and see a miracle? I can and do every single day.
How can you not look at the wonder in a childs eyes and not see a miracle. To see the love that people feel for each other reflected in their eyes and smiles, surely that's a miracle of all. Don't listen to the media and all those who tell us what's wrong with our world and our loves, instead open your own eyes, see things for yourself and enjoy the thousands of miracles that surround you every single moment.
It's all in the way you look at life. I feel sorry for those who don't see miracles.

[TomOfSweden]

There are miracles around us every day if only we take the time to notice. The things I feel and the joy that we experience in our lives every day is a miracle. Can you wander along a street and see a miracle? I can and do every single day.
How can you not look at the wonder in a childs eyes and not see a miracle. To see the love that people feel for each other reflected in their eyes and smiles, surely that's a miracle of all. Don't listen to the media and all those who tell us what's wrong with our world and our loves, instead open your own eyes, see things for yourself and enjoy the thousands of miracles that surround you every single moment.
It's all in the way you look at life. I feel sorry for those who don't see miracles.

I totally agree, but the thread is rather about the supposed supernatural origin of those miracles.

[Thorne]

It's all in the way you look at life. I feel sorry for those who don't see miracles.

I'm much more comfortable seeing reality than trying to visualize things that aren't there. Don't feel sorry for me, though. I feel sorry for those who try to block out reality by sentimental musings and pseudo religious visions. Sooner or later the real world will break through and knock them for a loop.

[markus_valtion]

i do believe in miracles. i would be dead if they didnt exsist.
i have had so many close calls in my life. but to me its not god that makes them.
its weird but i believe that something or someone is watching over me.

[Thorne]

i do believe in miracles. i would be dead if they didnt exsist.
i have had so many close calls in my life. but to me its not god that makes them.
its weird but i believe that something or someone is watching over me.

I hear this kind of thing all the time after some sort of catastrophe. Something happens and someone doesn't get killed and right away they claim it's a miracle, that they prayed and God saved them. So why didn't God save the other 29 people who died that day? I'm sure they were praying, too.

No, I'm with TYWD on this one. (Talk about MIRACLES!!!) Chance plays a much larger roll in our lives than any of us want to admit. Miracles let us assume that we have at least some form of control: if we pray hard enough, or lead good lives, or do SOMETHING, then we'll be protected. Chance is completely beyond our control. It either hits you or it doesn't.

[ThisYouWillDo]

In a godless universe (multiverse?) there is only one miracle: chance.

[TomOfSweden]

In a godless universe (multiverse?) there is only one miracle: chance.

Isn't that a bit narrow definition of Miracle? How about miracles as "the incomprehensible"?

[Thorne]

Isn't that a bit narrow definition of Miracle? How about miracles as "the incomprehensible"?

No, incomprehensible means just that: we cannot comprehend it. That doesn't make it a miracle. Just unknown.

The Bible claims that Jesus walked on water, and proclaims it a miracle. A thousand years later if someone walked on water they would be executed as a witch. Now, if you see that it's probably David Blaine. Where's the miracle?

[TomOfSweden]

No, incomprehensible means just that: we cannot comprehend it. That doesn't make it a miracle. Just unknown.

The Bible claims that Jesus walked on water, and proclaims it a miracle. A thousand years later if someone walked on water they would be executed as a witch. Now, if you see that it's probably David Blaine. Where's the miracle?

That wasn't convincing. I still don't see a difference. All religious miracles are not only of unknown origin but also undetectable. How more unknown do you want to get?!?

[ThisYouWillDo]

I'll stick with "chance".

Assuming a multiverse, it's inevitable that this universe would have come into being. Assuming a universe, the chances of everything falling into place the way they did are mind-boggling (but not impossible), and it does tend to make you wonder if there's a place for a higher power.

TYWD

(And I think Thorne's a perectly reasonable man when he sees things my way! But I'm sure I just alienated him.)

[Thorne]

Assuming a multiverse, it's inevitable that this universe would have come into being. Assuming a universe, the chances of everything falling into place the way they did are mind-boggling (but not impossible), and it does tend to make you wonder if there's a place for a higher power.

Why? As you state, there HAS to be a universe, or we couldn't be here. But it didn't HAVE to turn out this way. If it were different, then we would be different, or at least beings in that universe would be different. And they would undoubtedly be standing around wondering how they could have gotten so lucky to have the universe turn out perfectly to suit them!

No, chance plays its part, but it is WE who are attuned to this universe, not the other way around. If it is possible for life to exist on a world without water (and that means ANY kind of life, not just life as we know it) then there is a possibility for that life to advance to a point of intelligence, or what we would recognize as intelligence. Their universe would be much different than ours, but it's still the same "multiverse."

(And I think Thorne's a perectly reasonable man when he sees things my way! But I'm sure I just alienated him.)

Alienated? Not at all! You're right: I am a perfectly reasonable man when you see things my way. I also happen to be a perfectly reasonable man when you DON'T see things my way.

By damn, that makes me perfect! Where are all the ladies?

[ThisYouWillDo]

Why? As you state, there HAS to be a universe, or we couldn't be here. But it didn't HAVE to turn out this way. If it were different, then we would be different, or at least beings in that universe would be different. And they would undoubtedly be standing around wondering how they could have gotten so lucky to have the universe turn out perfectly to suit them!

No, chance plays its part, but it is WE who are attuned to this universe, not the other way around. If it is possible for life to exist on a world without water (and that means ANY kind of life, not just life as we know it) then there is a possibility for that life to advance to a point of intelligence, or what we would recognize as intelligence. Their universe would be much different than ours, but it's still the same "multiverse."

You're mixing universes and multiverses up. But I understand what you say. Life may be very common in this universe, and if it had come into existence in another way, life forms might still have been tenable. But it seems far more probable that it would have been absolutely sterile. For that reason alone it is not surprising that we think we see the hand of some greater being at work.

With a multiverse, there will be countless numbers of universes each having its own separate existence and its own set of scientific laws. It seems likely to me that many, many of them will support life in one form or another, but that many, many, many more will be utterly devoid of anything even remotely resembling life. The Hand of God will not be so obvious.

By damn, that makes me perfect! Where are all the ladies?

Sitting at my feet with rapt adoration.

TYWD

[Thorne]

You're mixing universes and multiverses up. But I understand what you say. Life may be very common in this universe, and if it had come into existence in another way, life forms might still have been tenable. But it seems far more probable that it would have been absolutely sterile. For that reason alone it is not surprising that we think we see the hand of some greater being at work.

I don't think this is accurate. More and more, scientists are finding that life seems to thrive under absolutely horrible conditions. There is evidence that life may have existed on Mars, even if it doesn't now, and there MAY possibly be life on some of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. Even here on Earth they have found life existing in environments which, just 30 years ago, they would have assumed to be sterile.
My point is, though, that just because man is the only intelligent species on the planet (as defined by ourselves: I'm not forgetting the cetaceans or other apes) we should not make the assumption that there must have been a higher being to create us. If that asteroid hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, is it possible that a saurian intelligence could have arisen here, rather than mammalian?
Let's face it: so far, 100% of the stellar systems we are able to study have intelligent life. The odds are good that there is more out there, somewhere, and it doesn't have to be mammalian or saurian or even carbon-based.

By damn, that makes me perfect! Where are all the ladies?
Sitting at my feet with rapt adoration.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to bring myself down to your level, then.

[Thorne]

You know, I just thought of a way to put it. Let's say that 29 people take a test but only two pass. Just like 29 people boarded a train that crashes and only two survive. Why only two? The other people prayed the other people studied. My answer is that only the two people who understood the rule survived or passed the test. If you don't understand that 2 + 2 =4 you won't ever pass but the rule was always true and always there. If you don't understand that God governs every moment and that you are spiritual and not material then you will have to learn that lesson another way. Jesus prooved that there is no death and so the 26 who passed on did just that; they didn't die just passed on. They awoke to realize that death never touched them, that they did not get off at a station called death. Did God love them any less? No. Does your math teacher love you any less? No.

Okay, I'm going to jump in with both feet here, and the hell with the consequences.
Is it possible that only two people passed the test because the teacher (God) grades on the curve? Chances are my math teacher doesn't love me, or care how I do, as long as his statistics show he's doing a good job. (And by the way, I know my math: two survivors plus 26 who passed on makes only 28 people! WHERE'S THAT LAST ONE HIDING???)

Do you honestly believe that a God who would destroy peoples lives, or allow peoples lives to be destroyed, is worthy of any kind of adoration? A God who inflicts vile diseases upon innocent children? A God who seems to have absolutely no pity for some people who try their damndest to please him? Is it possible that you can truly believe that those people who don't do or act precisely the way YOU think they should act can not be saved?

No, a loving and merciful God, which all those preachers claim he is, wouldn't give a rip HOW we worship, or even IF we worship. He would only be concerned with how we LIVE! How we use the life he gave us. Using your math analogy, when the teacher gives you a complex problem, the good teachers don't really care HOW you get to the solution, so long as you get there. The bad teachers require you to get there in only one way, and if you don't, you fail, regardless of whether or not you got the right answer!

And as for Jesus rising from the dead, I challenge you, or anyone else for that matter, to show me positive evidence, which doesn't ultimately arise from the Bible or the teachings of his disciples, that Jesus even existed, much less rose from the dead. It's my understanding that it can't be done: there is no evidence anywhere, except in the Bible, that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible actually existed. Hell, even the Bible contradicts itself about far too many important portions of his supposed life. There is ample independent evidence that Pilate existed, and Herod, and even Caiphus, the high priest. But there is nothing independent to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was ever tried, convicted or crucified.

I would guess this is going to piss off a lot of people, but I don't care anymore. This "holier-than-thou" attitude really drives me up the wall. And it's not just Christians. There are very few, if any, religions which accept the idea that other religions can be just as right as their own. And they are all based on suppositions, stories, fables and outright lies. The world would be a whole lot better place without all those religions fighting one another.

I've got it! Let's send all the priests/ministers/rabbis/mullahs out to battle one another. And may none of them come back alive.

[wmrs2]

Okay, I'm going to jump in with both feet here, and the hell with the consequences.
Is it possible that only two people passed the test because the teacher (God) grades on the curve? Chances are my math teacher doesn't love me, or care how I do, as long as his statistics show he's doing a good job. (And by the way, I know my math: two survivors plus 26 who passed on makes only 28 people! WHERE'S THAT LAST ONE HIDING???)

Do you honestly believe that a God who would destroy peoples lives, or allow peoples lives to be destroyed, is worthy of any kind of adoration? A God who inflicts vile diseases upon innocent children? A God who seems to have absolutely no pity for some people who try their damndest to please him? Is it possible that you can truly believe that those people who don't do or act precisely the way YOU think they should act can not be saved?

No, a loving and merciful God, which all those preachers claim he is, wouldn't give a rip HOW we worship, or even IF we worship. He would only be concerned with how we LIVE! How we use the life he gave us. Using your math analogy, when the teacher gives you a complex problem, the good teachers don't really care HOW you get to the solution, so long as you get there. The bad teachers require you to get there in only one way, and if you don't, you fail, regardless of whether or not you got the right answer!

And as for Jesus rising from the dead, I challenge you, or anyone else for that matter, to show me positive evidence, which doesn't ultimately arise from the Bible or the teachings of his disciples, that Jesus even existed, much less rose from the dead. It's my understanding that it can't be done: there is no evidence anywhere, except in the Bible, that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible actually existed. Hell, even the Bible contradicts itself about far too many important portions of his supposed life. There is ample independent evidence that Pilate existed, and Herod, and even Caiphus, the high priest. But there is nothing independent to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was ever tried, convicted or crucified.

I would guess this is going to piss off a lot of people, but I don't care anymore. This "holier-than-thou" attitude really drives me up the wall. And it's not just Christians. There are very few, if any, religions which accept the idea that other religions can be just as right as their own. And they are all based on suppositions, stories, fables and outright lies. The world would be a whole lot better place without all those religions fighting one another.

I've got it! Let's send all the priests/ministers/rabbis/mullahs out to battle one another. And may none of them come back alive.

Thorne, it is a highly emotional use of logic to blame a God that does not exist for the evil that is in the world. Why not blame mankind for the evil inflected on man. I don't see God killing and bringing sickness to the world. All the evil you speak of, I see man doing it to himself.

As for the proof of God, the Christ, Western Civilization's very existence is evidence that Christ existed. If you will not accept this, nothing will convince you that Christ lived. Myself, I see Christ's mark everywhere.

Think of God as a process. If man would listen to God, observe Him, and learn to use God things would be better for all. God is like a golf swing. It takes a lot of practice to perfect it. If you would practice using God more, you would feel better about the world. (One more thing, God is a Republican.)

[Thorne]

Thorne, it is a highly emotional use of logic to blame a God that does not exist for the evil that is in the world. Why not blame mankind for the evil inflected on man. I don't see God killing and bringing sickness to the world. All the evil you speak of, I see man doing it to himself.

I do not blame God for anything, as I don't believe he does exist. My point was that IF he existed, I could still not worship him because of the things he ALLOWS to happen. And if he is the ultimate creator of all that we know then he is, in some sense, responsible. Evil could not exist without God's knowledge and acceptance.

As for the proof of God, the Christ, Western Civilization's very existence is evidence that Christ existed. If you will not accept this, nothing will convince you that Christ lived. Myself, I see Christ's mark everywhere.

Yes, this is an old argument: God exists because I KNOW he exists. Western Civilization has nothing to do with the actual existence of Christ, but rather with the existence of the CONCEPT of Christ. My question is about whether the MAN existed. Any culture which develops a religion can "prove" that their gods exist by the actions those gods supposedly take. The crops grow every year, so their must be a god/goddess of fertility; the moon floats serenely overhead and only a god/goddess could do that, ergo there is a lunar god. You can attribute anything that you don't understand or can't control to the actions or inactions of the gods.
And actually, it's Western Law, rather than Civilization, which owes so much to the teachings of the Church. Like it or not, most nations' laws are based in some measure upon the Ten Commandments. But the Greeks and Romans did far more for the advance of Civilization than the Church ever did.

Think of God as a process. If man would listen to God, observe Him, and learn to use God things would be better for all. God is like a golf swing. It takes a lot of practice to perfect it. If you would practice using God more, you would feel better about the world. (One more thing, God is a Republican.)

Personally, I think of God as a convenient fiction which man developed at a time when he needed something to explain the world around him. As for God's political leanings, I must wonder to which God you are referring. Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, is probably a Republican. Christ, the God of the New Testament, is more likely to be a Democrat.

[ThisYouWillDo]

I agree with Thorne almost entirely, but I would prefer to think that a good Maths teacher would care little about whether the final answer was right, so long as the correct method was used to solve the problem, while a bad teacher wouldn't care about your understanding if you guessed the answer correctly.

I have always wondered why a god needs to be worshipped and praised. Does it make him feel good? Is there a heavenly opinion poll carrried out each week to see if Jehovah is more popular than Shiva, Vishnu, or Jupiter.

It also seems to me that a "jealous" god is probably also a very insecure god, and his motives are suspect, especially if he tries to "buy" adoration by promising one particular race of people preferential treatment over all others.

And why do we have to "deserve" salvation, when our imperfections are of his making? I am at a loss to understand why, if they prayed and studied, god would desert your 26 or 27 failed mathematicians in their moment of need. That certainly goes against what many Christian preachers suggest.


TYWD

[Thorne]

Well shit Thorne I don't know I was just playing devils advocate. I'm as atheist as they come. That's the religion I grew up with. I think if there is a God then I would worship this God because he is not the creator of sin, sickness and death. That means he never did anything on earth that you claim as it does not exist. I don't even believe in God at all. I just have to live with the fact that those three experiences are beyond explanation. You weren't there for any of them so you don't understand but still you want to say fuck God then fuck him, who cares, he doesn't exist anyway. I bet you didn't peg me for atheist huh? I believe in evolution that makes more since to me.

Well, DAMN, Pro Dom, you had me going there. I'm from the dead center of the Bible belt and I've heard local nuts who weren't as eloquent about there religion as you seemed to be. The last thing they need is a Devil's advocate. In fact, that's the last thing they would want!

[ThisYouWillDo]

Thorne.

I don't believe there is evidence of life outside Earth, whether past or present. There are indications that life as we know it is/was/might be possible, but no hard and fast evidence.

That said, my point is, while life might be abundant in a universe that permits life to exist, and it would be surprising that no life ever evolved in such circumstances, it seems far more probable that a universe that comes into existence purely by chance will produce conditions that are inimical to all life forms.

TYWD

[ThisYouWillDo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOx...elated&search=

This time Dawkins is having a go at science. Beside being interesting I think It's extremely funny. Among other things he defends belief in miracles. But it's not really about religion so I guess it's just a side note.

I've just come across Tom's post on another thread and thought it'd be an interesting side-note here too.

[TomOfSweden]

I've just come across Tom's post on another thread and thought it'd be an interesting side-note here too.

Good repost. That's one of those classical speeches that will go down in history as one of the most important ones ever. Dawkins may not be the best philosopher in the world, (I'm thinking about the God Delusion), but nobody can criticize him for his absolute understanding of science and it's limits. He's a king.

[ThisYouWillDo]

Ummm - the Eastern Orthodox Christians might take an opposing view, and that it was Rome which fell into error leading to the Schism

<No I am not having an anti-Ozme day, even if it looks like it!>

[Ozme52]

Ummm - the Eastern Orthodox Christians might take an opposing view, and that it was Rome which fell into error leading to the Schism

No issue there. My point is that it is indeed in the eye of the beholder... and not based on any underlying "truth".

<No I am not having an anti-Ozme day, even if it looks like it!>

No problem TY.

('course I haven't read what else you've shot my way today yet )

[ThisYouWillDo]

No issue there. My point is that it is indeed in the eye of the beholder... and not based on any underlying "truth".

So true ...

[ThisYouWillDo]

Apparently, people with greater religious beliefs are likely to live longer than average. It seems there is even scientific evidence to support this, but how good it is, I don't know.

Still, it seems we have a miracle: God lets his followers live longer.

TYWD

[Thorne]

Apparently, people with greater religious beliefs are likely to live longer than average. It seems there is even scientific evidence to support this, but how good it is, I don't know.

Still, it seems we have a miracle: God lets his followers live longer.

TYWD

Let us not forget that, historically, non-believers tend to die at the hands of believers! Skews the data.