Snuff

[efwb2]

I have never tried snuff are even thought about it in my own play, only read about it. There has got to be however people out there that due it.
I met one master in real life once in Scotland. We want back to mine and he showed me what he was into. It was videos of snuff men and woman alike. Being killed in different ways some had there heads cut off and you could still hear the body trying to get air into the lungs. While I ran to the toilet to though up, he watched a video of a woman being beaten to death.
When i asked him he loved the fantasy, the power to take a subs life but he said he would never try it in real life.

In my mind snuff for some people is a fantasy, a dangerous one if they decided to carry it out.

I think it’s like the BDSM's demon brother it’s connected to us and whispered about in the darkness. But if we where to try it in the civilized world, that we live in. It would mean jail time and harder laws on BDSM. Nobody wants that.

El x

Good topic and i look foward to hearing other peoples ideas.

[sinfulsex]

one question that leaped out at me while reading this is why would a master ask a sub to consent to snuff? i get euthanasia, but why would any person wish someone who has the rest of their life ahead of them to consent to ending it? especially as the dom, to be their master/owner has to have put effort into the whole relationship so some tender feelings have to be there?!?!?! just somethig leapt out at me. i know people all have their own views, im not trying to put down any one persons fantasies but yeh just a question to add to the multitude already on this post!

thanks
emma

[damyanti]

one question that leaped out at me while reading this is why would a master ask a sub to consent to snuff? i get euthanasia, but why would any person wish someone who has the rest of their life ahead of them to consent to ending it? especially as the dom, to be their master/owner has to have put effort into the whole relationship so some tender feelings have to be there?!?!?! just somethig leapt out at me. i know people all have their own views, im not trying to put down any one persons fantasies but yeh just a question to add to the multitude already on this post!

thanks
emma

Excellent question...but (unless I missed someone) only one dom commented. Interesting or telling?

One question I have for everyone;
If you knew your body and soul would be restored twenty four hours later would you do it?
You will have still experienced being tortured and killed and that memory will remain with you forever

If you could experienced being snuffed knowing that your
death would not be permanent would you do it?

Another very good question.

My answer is- no.

But then of course I wouldn't be having this dilemma (about others doing it).

You know what makes me really sad? The ending of The Story of O. And even though she's not "snuffed" by someone else in the end, in a way she's snuffed by the story line. She's so dehumanized in the end that there's really no one there. I know this is exciting to some people, just not to me.

That was my thoughts exactly on that book too!!!!

[redneck one]

Excellent question...but (unless I missed someone) only one dom commented. Interesting or telling?

I think in these forums dom is taken to mean the dominant partner in a loving, or at least mutually pleasurable relationship between consensual parties. If you love, or at least want to do no harm to the other part snuff is off the table. Even if the woman wants to be "snuff" we generally accept (in the US at least) that healthly, free people are incapiable of making that decision, and that if one does, they are somehow "unhealthy" and should not be allowed to make that decision. So I think most any normal dom plays by these rules. If such a person got turned on by fantasies of snuff, I don't think they would be very comfortable discussing it. To some much lesser degree, rape fantasy has the same stigma.

If you define dom just as someone who takes the domiant role in a sexual relationship (which might also be rape or murder,) you might get different answers. BUT, as I said before, you have a lot of news stories, documentaries, and true crime books covering people who rape and kill, but I have never heard of one who killed for sexual pleasure. So it seems to be that even guys who have no issues with raping and killing their victims, don't kill them for sexual pleasure. I'm sure it happens, but I'm guessing it is rare even among those who actually rape and kill a woman.

[fetishdj]

Lucy: Thanks for that info.

Life in most European countries is 10-20 years but is sometimes more depending on severity. While we don't formally differentiate into murder one etc there is an informal system in place which judges occasionally refer to when making an arbitrary decision about sentencing

[MissConfused]

One question I have for everyone;
If you knew your body and soul would be restored twenty four hours later would you do it?
You will have still experienced being tortured and killed and that memory will remain with you forever

If you could experienced being snuffed knowing that your
death would not be permanent would you do it?

[lucy]

you're very welcome, fetishdj

@MissConfused: that would be missing the point of being killed. What makes killing (be it yourself or someone else) so ... damn, can't find the words here... extreme, unique, taboo, final is the fact that there is no way back. Never. Ever. No more choices, no more decisions, no more of anything (well ok, there are other concepts of afterlife, concepts that give one choices and possibilities but i don't believe in those concepts as long as i didn't experience them myself)
With the possibility of resurrection on the next day killing somebody for pleasure is just some kind of playing. Still way too extreme for me, but after all only playing.

@efwb2: i wanted to ask if those movies you mentioned were real, but after thinking about it i prefer not to know...

[gagged_Louise]

One question I have for everyone;
If you knew your body and soul would be restored twenty four hours later would you do it?
You will have still experienced being tortured and killed and that memory will remain with you forever

If you could experienced being snuffed knowing that your
death would not be permanent would you do it?

That's another really good question. I don't think I can give a definite answer, but if we'll suppose this knowledge that you will be restored (and without any broken bones, just some momentary pain) was with me before but somehow blocked out once they started torturing me hard, so that I thought I was going to die permanently then hesitantly yes. But I wouldn't see it happening as some kind of "lust murder" by a lover, more in the kind of context I was onto in my post: captured in wartime or during a rebellion, taken prisoner by pirates in the old days, or something like that. And the people who did it or watched it would think I was being done in for good too, and would jeer at me. hoot that I was gonna die like scum (yikes!)

I agree with Lucy that the idea that death might ever be reversed and your body and soul restored after 24 hours somehow misses the point of asking if it's hot to consider death, seen as a final act of sacrifice, humiliation or just of being snuffed out non-con, butchered, so that's why one would have to be thinking one were killed for good and face that destiny. But since the only part of this that turns me on is as liminal fantasy - and not very often - I think the question works for me. I've never seen a real "snuff movie" of somebody being mutilated and beaten to death - even if it would only be acting - and the idea revolts me.

Maybe this is the kind of vicarious thrill we get from seeing some kind of suspense movies where the heroine is bound and knows she is about to be tortured and killed - of course in the film she escapes 99 times out of 100. I couldn't point out just how strongly this connects with my submissive side, some of the actions are the same only harsher, but the setting is so different from what I would ever really wish a lover to do to me.

The scene in The Count Of Monte Cristo where Dantès escapes by changing place with the dead body of Faria, and his swathed body suddenly has a heavy cannonball bound to it at the feet and he's hurled over the cliff into the stormy sea - it's always been fascinating to me. It has a Hitchcock-like feeling, this is really a borderline scene, and of course his escape is quite implausible, but so what...

I wouldn't want to be walking around in fear that it would happen again - well, do I have to stress that? So this is a really hypothetical question, but a good one.

[gagged_Louise]

When i say I've never seen a real snuff scene of someone being beaten or stabbed to death, it's with the exception of heavily choreographed scenes (Errol Flynn, Bruce Lee etc) that don't try to look truly realistic and gritty. There is a scene in the movie The Passenger (1975), starring Jack Nicholson, of a man being bound to some gas barrels and shot by African guerillas; I've seen it. That one is supposed to be genuine footage of a real execution, it's unclear whether the film team took it themselves or they were handed it by someone but they were filming in a part of West Africa where guerilla warfare was going on, and it fitted into the story.
I did not see The Passion of the Christ.

[gagged_Louise]

For people who want to gauge hoiw they feel about these ideas and at the same time see a very good movie, Carl Dreyer's The Passion of Joan of Arc is an outstanding study in interrogation, pressure on a woman who knows she might die, and final willing sacrifice at the stake. It was made in 1928 so it's a silent movie (reissued on dvd), but the camera work and acting are extraordinary - the facials of the cleric judges ringing Jeanne are wonderful, and the final pyre scene is very impressive and a great climax to the film.

[fetishdj]

Some of the fight scenes in Fellowship of the ring have real blood in them from the stuntmen and Viggo Mortensen playing a bit rough... but thats the closest I have ever come to watching a real snuff film

[gagged_Louise]

Some of the fight scenes in Fellowship of the ring have real blood in them from the stuntmen and Viggo Mortensen playing a bit rough... but thats the closest I have ever come to watching a real snuff film

Some of the elven princes and knights in LOTR looked like hard rockers didn't they? I would have liked to watch when the guys in the heavy metal band Gwar went to their company bosses dressed up as vikings with battle axes, horned helmets and guitars and tossed pig blood on the bigwigs...

[leah06]

You know what makes me really sad? The ending of The Story of O. And even though she's not "snuffed" by someone else in the end, in a way she's snuffed by the story line. She's so dehumanized in the end that there's really no one there. I know this is exciting to some people, just not to me.

[lucy]

You know what makes me really sad? The ending of The Story of O. And even though she's not "snuffed" by someone else in the end, in a way she's snuffed by the story line. She's so dehumanized in the end that there's really no one there. I know this is exciting to some people, just not to me.

Yup, that is one of the saddest endings i ever came across.

As for movies: Pier Paolo Pasolini's Salò o le 120 giornate di Sodoma (Salò or the 120 Days of Sodom) has it all too. From abduction to extreme torture and snuff. Not in a BDSM-setting but in a fascist one.
It's still so controversial that Zurich's police wanted to prohibit a small cinema to show it last year but then gave permission because they had "underestimated the artistic value of the movie". (Zurich is usually rather liberal with such things, which has led to it being one of the hotspots of the homosexual community in Europe)

[leo9]

I had to think this one out carefully, because two previous partners have been excited by edgy games where - either by breath control or by artery pressure - I could hold them in a state where their lives were literally in my hands, and where they were close enough to passing out to feel that they might die right there. And it was a big thrill because, if this is about power exchange, then the power of life and death is universally recognised as the ultimate.

But that didn't quite fit, and I realised that it wasn't what this is about because none of us seriously imagined that I would kill them; the thrill was just that I could, that I had that power and wasn't afraid to use it. If the fantasy had been that I was going to kill them, it would have been a whole different game.

[Matin]

i personally can't find anything erotic about snuff, either erotica or pictures or porn. i include torture.

i think that if i fantasize about it i would be putting her face in the fantasy...

i cannot bear her face in any real serious pain. i guess i'm not a sadist.

that's not to say i disapprove of anyone having any kind of fantasy, hey i'm not livin in any glass house.

in practise.. i disapprove. the idea that people might be killed or genuinely mutilated for the pleasure of others is as abhorrent to me as, say, a tijuana donkey show. or the torture of women in clubs in bangkok.

like seth rogen says in the 40 yr old virgin; "you're all exited because it's, like, a chick having sex with a donkey!" pause.. "then you get there, and its a chick. having sex with a donkey." and that bleak look on his face when he tells it is how i'd look.

*shrug* i'm so full of two centses tonight...

[efwb2]

Lucy: Yes the movies where real, filmed in the Middle East some where. They are really disturbing and I never want to see any thing like that again. I just don’t have the stomach for it and it does not turn me on in any way.

Human Life is precious; I teach kids for a living in the outdoors and only have three rules, Respect you’re self, Respect everyone else and Respect the Environment.

Those rules are my rules for life. I have done security where I have had knifes pulled on me and I’ve had to leave people bloody. But that was self defence and I think there is a huge difference in defending ones self and hurting someone. I could not imagine hurting one hair on my girl’s heads in a way. I would fight to protect them first.
I live by my three rules and I have the utmost respect for my girls. That’s stops me from taking that step into the big taboo of are world.

El x

[Arria]

But that didn't quite fit, and I realised that it wasn't what this is about because none of us seriously imagined that I would kill them; the thrill was just that I could, that I had that power and wasn't afraid to use it.

That describes the thrill I feel during breathplay very well.
If I didn´t trust my play partner to stop before it got really dangerous, I would not consider breathplay with him...

As I said elsewhere, I don´t know how far I would go if I had no family; but with things being as they are, realizing a snuff fantasy is just out of the question.

[gagged_Louise]

you have a lot of news stories, documentaries, and true crime books covering people who rape and kill, but I have never heard of one who killed for sexual pleasure

I think there are such people, even if the sexual turn-on would often be mingled with the jolt of power, having someone bound and begging not to be killed. It used to be called "lust murder" (lustmord in German and Swedish). The word may sound strange but the linking is a reality with certain criminals I think: they get off on the act of torturing and killing without consent, of watching their victim humiliated and knowing he/she will die. Some cannibalism cases are probably like that, I wouldn't want to say if Armin Meiwes belongs there but he might. And with some serial killers and rapists, I think the idea that killing and destroying is directly linked to sexual release, like a pyromaniac setting off fire, is hard to deny.

This is not at all the same as sadism in a BDSM sense of course, though some sex stories seem to show men (less often women) that could be labeled both as Dominants and as people possessed with a desire to kill and see their object painfully destroyed.

[gagged_Louise]

Barbie Snuff?

Have to draw some more attention to this - the link's been posted before in the wonderful Barbie thread on the photo board:
http://barbiecrimescenes.blogspot.com/ (the myspace page they started up has clearly been deleted for obscene content!)

[redneck one]

Barbie Snuff?

Have to draw some more attention to this - the link's been posted before in the wonderful Barbie thread on the photo board:
-snip- (the myspace page they started up has clearly been deleted for obscene content!)

If you liked that you ought to watch the unrated version of the movie "Team America" which includes a sex scene between marionette dolls that degenerates into water sports and finally a brown shower. I just wonder if some hollywood model maker went home one day and had to tell his wife he spent the whole day building a "Shitting Barbie" doll.

[Arria]

I forgot to point out that the idea of being killed by any old someone does nothing for me. The idea only excites me where it involves my loved partner, so perhaps it does indeed have to do more with submission in an extreme form, and not with death per se?

However, there is enough stuff on the web where snuff scenes are faked (and I am sure there is stuff circulated where it is really done - I think if you have the necessary amount of money, you can buy ANY service the human mind could come up with), some of them very convincing, and there apparently is a clientele for it.
Hubby knows some of those pages, and I think some guys (as the described Scot dom in a post further above) watch that as a sort of porn, nothing else.

In that regard, some of you might have seen the movie "Mute Witness", where a girl from Eastern Europe thinks she is participating in a regular porn movie, but it turns out she gets killed on purpose. It is apparent from her facial expressions that she had no idea where this would end.

I think something similar was shown in "8 mm", but I have not seen that one.

I have also once been shown some film material that was not for sale via the regular channels, and from the looks of it the women were middle-aged prostitutes, and the whole thing was located in what looked like the cliché Southern American secret service dungeon... There were no death scenes, but the women did not appear in any way willing or happy or aroused, there was very serious stuff done to them, and they were fixed in a way that disabled them from getting away or fight back... Mind you, I have seen stuff on Insex and the like, where extreme actions took place also, but it was always obvious the women did it voluntarily, and there were "after" scenes as well, where the ladies appeared quite relaxed to me...

I am sure stuff like this happens in real life.

I also understand why people, especially doms, who fantasize about being the active part in a snuff scene, will hesitate to admit it, for fearing to be called a potential serial killer etc., or getting a visit from the local authorities in case a woman around their area gets reported missing...

One last thing: I once spoke extensively with a guy from my city in a German chat room about that fantasy, and I was oh-so-pleased to have found someone who would not run sccreaming and call me nuts, but simply and matter-of-factly communicated with me about the risks and troubles and the details of my own particular fantasy.
However, when he asked my exact location and name, I grew a little cautious, and broke off the convo.

When I told this later to hubby, he said oh well, he knew that nick, and the guy behind it plus a few of his friends were actually looking for a woman with that sort of fantasy, and willing to fulfill it (apparently they had the means to cover it up and prevent them from having to face legal consequences).
But as no one ever met that guy in real life, and none of our regular chatters went missing, we had no way to check this out. (I was not willing to act as bait, neither would hubby have allowed that *g*).

So a word of caution to the subs on here: Please be aware who you share this particular fantasy with.
You don´t want to end up with a guy who is a little overeager in acting out your desires.

[leo9]

On the subject of subs who want to be the victim, some years ago I got into correspondence with a genteel elderly man who very badly wanted someone to wall him up in a corner of a cellar, feed him through a hole till the food stopped being taken, then brick up the hole and forget about it. (His alternative dream was to be locked into a body bag and tube fed till he drowned in his accumulating excreta, then the bag sealed up and buried.) I talked to him a lot on the phone - he was as talkative as anyone who rarely gets a chance to share his deepest need - and I had no doubt that his desire was real and urgent: he said more than once, as if it made perfect sense, "It's what I deserve."

There was absolutely no way I was going to tell him that what he needed was major therapy, but likewise there was no way I was going to do it. As it happened, for quite separate reasons I was at that time very much under the eye of the Law, and all it would have needed to make my troubles complete would be a body in my cellar; but I wouldn't have done it even if I had been certain I could get away with it.

I've noted before that I'm cool with the idea of giving an extreme masochist a good (i.e. exquisitely painful) death, but only if hir life is at an end anyway. Like most euthanasia advocates, while I can accept helping someone who's dying anyhow and doesn't want it to be needlessly hard, I don't consider just being sick of oneself a good enough reason to die; certainly not good enough to warrant my help.

But I was really sorry for him, and if I could have put him in touch with someone who would realise his dream, I would have been happy to.

[fetishdj]

Me neither... I don't feel that way but I know many who do. I think it comes from the extremes involved, the finality of it. Many Vampire myths (including the original Bram Stoker) are based on the relationship between love (and by extension sex) and death, there is evidence in the language (le petit mort or the little death being a term used to describe an orgasm) and there seems to be whole subcultures that are in love with the idea of death and therefore find the idea of dying romantic/sexy/hot.

I think the concept of snuff is somewhere at the extreme ends of those subcultures, most of whom (like those who admitted as much here) would think about it and get hot at the fantasy but would never do it. They are related to each other in the same way as the blokes who nail their genitals to boards or other more extreme ends of BDSM are related to the majority of us. There is always a gradiated scale in involvement in any scene and BDSM is the perfect example. There are many in the world who consider themselves vanilla (if they knew the term) who enjoy a little light bondage and spanking and who wouldn't do most of the more extreme stuff. There are those who, like me, enjoy some of the more extreme stuff but know that there are many things I will not do (branding, piercings) and so it goes.

Now the difficult thing to establish is how many of these more extreme 'death lovers' are there really? Do any exist at all or are they just bluster and rumour? Someone who was really into this sort of thing is unlikely to admit it due to the legality involved and any who do are more than likely not telling the truth. Its like Umberto Eco's comment on Rosicrucians (read Foccault's pendulum, its a better version of the Da Vinci code) - anyone who claimed to be a Rosicrucian was probably not one because they were a secret order and no one in a secret order would be stupid enough to admit it...

[Arria]

@ lucy: Funny that you mention it. "Which poor person will clean the mess up" was exactly my point of worry.

I guess if anybody acts this out, he should also take care of the leftovers, and spare others the view and the mess.

[Carpe Coma]

What are your views on this topic? How do you see snuff?

If this is a fetish of yours...what is it that you find erotic or sexually gratifying (because I honestly don't see it)? Is it a way to romanticize death?

I don't think it is a way to romanticize death for most. At least one other person in this thread has said that they saw it as the ultimate submission. I don't agree with that either, as I do think that there are fates worse than death. Instead, I see it as the ultimate objectification, the ultimate devaluation. The stripping away of what we generally consider the most basic human right.

Are there people turned on by it on both sides of the act? Absolutely. I have chatted with a few on the "snuff me" side. Their reasons varied, but they mostly centered around the idea of becoming nothing combined with the curious lack of a sense of self preservation.

Can someone consent to being "snuffed"? I can think of a few conditions where that could be the case and the person wouldn't automatically be considered insane, though they pretty much all revolve around the "snuffee" being terminally ill in some manner. The idea of consenting to death delves into some very murky ethical waters. At what point does someone need to be protected from themselves? You can't properly address this without having a bulletproof definition of insanity, which we currently lack. Instead we have the catch-all of when they seek harm upon themselves. Though by that definition, any masochist could be considered insane.

Is snuff just another word for suicide?

No. Suicide is either to escape, to gain control, or a case of temporary chemical imbalance. People that seek suicide by proxy (which is what snuff would be if it was another word for suicide) generally aren't that particular about how it happens. Just like people with rape fantasies, people with snuff fantasies tend to care about with whom and how it happens. People just seeking to die usually want it to happen relatively quickly and painlessly, while snuff fantasies tend to be prolonged affairs. Snuff fantasies almost always have what they feel to be a very strong sexual component, while suicide by proxy is just about getting someone else to do what they themselves cannot.

[leo9]

At least one other person in this thread has said that they saw it as the ultimate submission. I don't agree with that either, as I do think that there are fates worse than death. Instead, I see it as the ultimate objectification, the ultimate devaluation. The stripping away of what we generally consider the most basic human right.

Are there people turned on by it on both sides of the act? Absolutely. I have chatted with a few on the "snuff me" side. Their reasons varied, but they mostly centered around the idea of becoming nothing combined with the curious lack of a sense of self preservation.

That's an interesting insight. I recall a story that appeared in the Library last year, in which a slave was elaborately bound, mummified (including provision for tube feeding and evacuation as well as the usual self-propelled dildoes) and finally coffined and buried, with gravestone and all. The fact that she would supposedly be kept alive but absolutely helpless in her coffin for some unspecified but long time was presented as part of the thrill - rather like a snuff fan's version of the old joke about wanting to enjoy your own funeral.

I suppose that explains why some people combine it with cannibal fantasies. Using someone as meat is another way of taking objectification to the limit.