BDSM And Feminism: Intertwined? How So?

[denuseri]

Skips in, stops all of the sudden and looks up at the pretty post. Puts my hands to my chin and cringes down a little bit with an audible gasp...........

"It has been my experience that women who proclaim that they are not feminists are the ones who just want to stay home, go shopping, do nothing and have a "sponsor" who pays for it all and are too conceited to lift a finger. They want to be treated like a lady. In Europe we call them WAGs, and if thats a lady,...I prefer to buy my own handbags. To me a man is a person, not a wallet. " by damyanti

OMG damy: WOW by this quote of standards above I must be like a new type of feminist the UBER-FEME-A-Excellente!!!! ,(best James earl Jones meets Ricardo Montaban and Grace Jones voice I can squeak out) You know the type that whorships her "man-sponser" like he is a little demigod. ( nodding a lot)

I mean like gosh! I allmost am like allways doing "something" as opposed to nothing, I am like never home, shopping is like somthing I never have time to do, like well other than buying food to feed everyone when I cook, (even on E-bay) I am like allways off working instead of being home...like I have two jobs even,, (does the "I couldve had a V8 face)..I am sure of it now!`

I am Femanist Suprema Maimila!!,

oh~ wait I am also his professional house maid, cook, and all around slut too, sooooo that actually cums to like (counts on my fingers) FIVE!!..five jobs I am holding down.

Thanks for pointing it out and forgive this silly girl's fuzzy math.



..........Skips out whistleing Dixie

[damyanti]

LOL denuseri, that posts wasnt about you and you know it. Just as you know that WAGs do exist and their mantra is "I am a girls girl and not a feminist".

And, darling, you may not wish to call yourself one, but you are a feminist. In fact, you are my feminist girl icon. (and I considered you that before this thread, so

[denuseri]

Giggles I just figured i better point out the irony in stereotyping catagorically.

"I find those women who say that they are not feminists to be spoiled, rude and ungrateful. And also ignorant, because one of the meanings of the word feminist is to be of feminine character. So if you are not feminine, what are you, butch? " by damyanti

Just to use myself as an example:

Again I must say I most certianly am not a feminist.

I have never been spolied other than to have good gender based role models for parents and a Master that puts my life above his own.

Admitably I am sometimes rude, but I am working on it.

No one that I have had contact with to my knowledge has said I am ungrateful, heck I even thank the dominants in my life for spanking my ass among other things winks (IE: OWWWW! two! Slut thanks Master! may she have another? )

I am far to much of a girlie girl (despite being raised rather tomboyishly) with a out of control hello kitty fettish to be even remotely accosiated with being "butch".

Ignorance might be bliss, but the little korean boy that heads the chess team in the honors room at school does fear my approch for a reason, and it's not becuase I have nice legs or a naughty nature that knows when he is looking at my mouth he is thinking about anything but the game (licks my lips). It's actually probabley got more to do with something about my wicked end game or the way I out think him.

Historically speaking:

The conseptualization of what it means to be "feminine" ergo to be "female" existed for tens of thousands of years perhaps even longer (even before "language" fully developed) which is a far better example of precedance than any recent mis-conseptualization by the so called feminists....... who have managed to twist and transvaluate values (to quote niestche).

So I find the your statement saying it must be this or that (feminist or butch) indicative of sophistry as it is a catagorically spurious corelation with little relevance to any logic in your argument other than to attempt to invoke an emotional responce instead of apealing to reason.

Just for paradoxical purposes:

If I am a feminist then you are a kajira!

And, darling, you may not wish to call yourself one, but you are a kajira. In fact, you are my kajira girl icon in waiting. (and I considered you that before this thread. (winks)

[damyanti]

If I am a feminist then you are a kajira!

And, darling, you may not wish to call yourself one, but you are a kajira. In fact, you are my kajira girl icon in waiting. (and I considered you that before this thread. (winks)

( I actually quite like that, thanks)


Fine, let me ask you this - what does it mean to be a feminist? Who is a feminist?


Because to me being a feminist means that I am respected as a human being, that my opinions are not rejected just because I am a woman, or my "place" predetermined just by my gender. Because yes, if you say that you are not a feminist, then what are you? To me it means that you have a mold, into which women should fit.

But to me thats just it, you cant put all women down into a mold as if they all want the same thing. Just as all women don't want to be touched the same way, not all women want their doors held. Just because most women choose so called female professions, why does that mean that the one who wants to be a truck driver has to go through hell and all the put downs, and even antagonism from other women because she is not "a lady"?

To me feminism is about freedom and choice, many choices - a freedom to be a kajira, a stay at home mum, a carpenter, not to marry, and a right to do with your body as you want - so when someone says "I am not a feminist," what I hear is, "Only my choice is right, and all the others who don't fall into that mold, should be forcefully brought into the flock or eliminated". Because thats what it comes down to, so I have an equal distaste for those "militant" feminists and those who puff their chest and say that they aren't - because to me its a sign of ultimate disrespect and ungratefulness to all those women who came before them (throughout history) and fought to break the mold.



And off topic, you cant, in every, argument accuse someone of sophism. I wont even go into the argument about what Sophism really was or is. But in the derogatory sense that you are so fond of using, the prime example of it is, accusing another of sophistry as a persuasion technique.

[thir]

[COLOR="Magenta"]
To me feminism is about freedom and choice, many choices - a freedom to be a kajira, a stay at home mum, a carpenter, not to marry, and a right to do with your body as you want



You said it. And thought it is not a good idea to speak for others, I will venture the guess that that is what a vast majority of women - and men - wants.

[blythe spirit]

Historically speaking:

The conseptualization of what it means to be "feminine" ergo to be "female" existed for tens of thousands of years perhaps even longer (even before "language" fully developed) which is a far better example of precedance than any recent mis-conseptualization by the so called feminists....... who have managed to twist and transvaluate values (to quote niestche).

Thank you, again. This is basically what I referred to in my original post.

And, damyanti, thank you for "coming around." Your last paragraph (in bold) differs dramatically from your last paragraph in post #24. I believe that all women want their voice, but to be heard we sometimes have to whisper.

[Pearlgem]

I wonder what others think. Is it living the feminist ideal to make a living from your body or your looks and have that celebrated over achievements of the mind? I read of many women claiming that their materialistic, no-brainer lifestyle is practically a positive feminist choice when what they aspire to do is bag themselves a rich footballer-type husband. I wonder how far down the road you can stretch feminism this way? Is it feminist to be a model, to be involved in pornography, prostitution? As long as it it perceived to be a choice, is it acceptable, is it feminist? Does it matter?
Personally I think the pressure many women now face to have their vaginas surgically reconstructed is definitely a feminist issue!

[thir]

Giggles I just figured i better point out the irony in stereotyping catagorically.

"

Historically speaking:

The conseptualization of what it means to be "feminine" ergo to be "female" existed for tens of thousands of years perhaps even longer (even before "language" fully developed) which is a far better example of precedance than any recent mis-conseptualization by the so called feminists....... who have managed to twist and transvaluate values (to quote niestche).


[/I][/B]

The fact is that noone knows very much about how the early humans lived, except that it was probably a good life with quite easy access to all kinds of food.

[Arria]

Feminism means to me that a woman takes the right to choose for herself which life, job, family setup etc. makes her happy.
If this means being a submissive to a man, so be it.

It should not mean "doing everything like a man" or "doing everything better than a man" or "hating men" or "not having sex with men" or any of such bullshit.

That sort of self-proclaimed "feminists" were the only ones who gave me a really hard time when I discovered my sexual preferrence. They just piss me off!

[denuseri]

Fine, let me ask you this - what does it mean to be a feminist? Who is a feminist?

Feminist is according to the Oxford dictionary "one who practices feminism.

Feminism being according to the same reference scource: "A noun refering to a movement or theory (yes a theory!!) supporting womens rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.

A therory that I quite simply dont subscribe too. Especially the more emasculating practices that such thinking supports. To say "woman is equal to man" is to say there is no need for a differential catagory of being, humankind has tewo distinct sexes with different capabilities geared toawrds thier respective roles in life. To say that we are in effect the same is preposterous. Especially when the reality however is that we are in fact different in a great number of ways. The theory is in effect parenthitically impossible by definition.

I am in no way shape or form "equal" to anyone else least of all the other half of the species who's bio-ethical makeup is geared to a different role.

Of course the code of virture ethics i subscribe to hasnt been twisted by the feminist movement into a transvaluated imaginary playing field where the "reality" of what is and is not`~ is derived not from the observational logic; but from emotive conjecture.



Because to me being a feminist means that I am respected as a human being, that my opinions are not rejected just because I am a woman, or my "place" predetermined just by my gender. Because yes, if you say that you are not a feminist, then what are you? To me it means that you have a mold, into which women should fit.

Honestly If you do study history the female of the species has been held in great reguard by many. Respect has allways been a two way street between man and woman.
Ergo a woman's opinions are not to be catagorically dismissed just becuase of her sex. A womans "place" has never been soley determined just becuase of her sex, (even though biology has predetermined her primary role) too many other variables have allways applied to every situation. I can come up with just as many examples to support this statement as you can to refute it so dont even bother we will end up filling the entire forum lol.

Biology , a supreme being or beings, the force, what have you, and millions of years of evolution have allready predetermined the vast majority of your "place" within nature, (just as it has with everything else living) that you rail against it as a "feminist" doesnt mean your genitic makeup or chemical structure is going to change to accomadate your beliefs.

As they say in anatomy and phisiology: "structure equals function"

My structure is that of a woman not that of a man. By oxfords deffinition I am not in the slightest a feminist becuase to me a feminist is being untruthful and illogical to both herself and others in her persistant belief in an illogical theory.

But to me thats just it, you cant put all women down into a mold as if they all want the same thing. Just as all women don't want to be touched the same way, not all women want their doors held. Just because most women choose so called female professions, why does that mean that the one who wants to be a truck driver has to go through hell and all the put downs, and even antagonism from other women because she is not "a lady"?

The feminists (ironically) themselves are the bigest "mold" makers and "putters" by assuming all wemon should fit into thier twisted catagorical quest for unacheivable utopian equality.

Individual bias and discrimination doesnt require a non-sensical "theroy" or movement to combat it, it only needs moral fortitude and common sence.

To me feminism is about freedom and choice, many choices - a freedom to be a kajira, a stay at home mum, a carpenter, not to marry, and a right to do with your body as you want - so when someone says "I am not a feminist," what I hear is, "Only my choice is right, and all the others who don't fall into that mold, should be forcefully brought into the flock or eliminated". Because thats what it comes down to, so I have an equal distaste for those "militant" feminists and those who puff their chest and say that they aren't - because to me its a sign of ultimate disrespect and ungratefulness to all those women who came before them (throughout history) and fought to break the mold.

You apparently by your own definition are not what I or oxford would call a feminist.

To me feminism is about being forced by societal peer pressure to conform into an un-natural-state of behavior that results in unfufilment on a physical, mental and spiritual level becuase it attempts to emasculate and gender nutralize our society as a whole.
I refuse to conform to it becuase I would have to convince myself that somthing that is a "lie" is instead somhow illogically the "truth".

When someone says "I am not a feminist," what I hear is: Oh good another woman has reialized how the wool was pulled over her eyes, mabey there is some hope yet. To bad the "feminists" are going to brand and hunt us for choosing not to conform to the "role" they have established for the flock and we will perhaps be eliminated for standing up to them. Because thats what it comes down to.

I have an equal distaste for feminists, militant or otherwise, especially those who puff their chest and say that I am somehow wrong or oppressed or am disrespecting my vernable elders memory- because I embrace my nature like so many of the women preceding me so honorably did.

To me "feminism" is a sign of the ultimate disrespect and ungratefulness to all those women who came before us, period.[/

[thir]

[QUOTE=denuseri;725516]

Biology , a supreme being or beings, the force, what have you, and millions of years of evolution have allready predetermined the vast majority of your "place" within nature, (just as it has with everything else living) that you rail against it as a "feminist" doesnt mean your genitic makeup or chemical structure is going to change to accomadate your beliefs.

As they say in anatomy and phisiology: "structure equals function"


I refuse to conform to it becuase I would have to convince myself that somthing that is a "lie" is instead somhow illogically the "truth".[/I]

This is what is so confusing to me. Anyone has a right to their opinions and ideas and what to call themselves, but you how can you call it facts? We are talking about early humans (or so I read it) and how they lived, and noone knows too much about that. There simply isn't anything to point to, much less prove, that idea of man as protector and provider, and women as, excuse me, eternal parasites on his work, for so I must see it.

All animals have males and females, all females give birth or lay eggs or whatever, but none are provided for by any male. In some species, birds, both sexes provide for the young and take turns warning the eggs, but to the best of my knowledge that is it.

I respect your opinion, but I do not see that you have any facts to back up your opinion as fact, nor any cause to be so angry about people who question the factual basis of your opinions.

We all have our ideas, but noone has the eternal truth.

[leo9]

There simply isn't anything to point to, much less prove, that idea of man as protector and provider, and women as, excuse me, eternal parasites on his work, for so I must see it.

For those who try to refer everything back to animal models, it's worth pointing out that in almost every species I can think of, "protection" is what females do for their young. Folklore everywhere says that the most dangerous creature to threaten is a mother, whether it's a sheep or a lion. Males don't come into it.

Males that "protect" a mob of females (it doesn't happen in species that form couples) usually spend most of their effort "protecting" them against mating with other males. When it comes to predators, the group stands together.

"Man the protector", like "Man the provider" (and its counterpart, "Woman the brainless breeder"), is part of the Tarzan theory of human evolution, which was demolished decades ago in serious science but still thrives in pop textbooks.

[leah06]

The fact is, women who get to choose not to be feminists in (some parts of) the modern world get that choice because of the feminists who came before them. Without the feminists who preceded us, the choice would not exist. We would all be channeled into one mould without reference to the (clearly obvious, from the posts on this thread) different aspirations, abilities, and situations of different women.

And before you tell me about the three women who made different life choices prior to feminism, don't. My mother was one of them, and God bless her, but I'm talking about the general freedom of decision that most women have in some parts of the world today.

[PropertyOfMasterJoey]

i TOTALLY agree with denusari i can't really add anything to a brilliant post lol

[denuseri]

The real fact is:

Wemon have made choices throughout human history long long long before the advent of the so called "feminist" movement.

We didn't need Feminism to make any desicions for us.

We as women have had a very great impact on culture and society ever since before the proverbial apple was plucked from the metaphoric tree.

The argument that only three women have made choices prior to the feminist movement that came along and would have us make ourselves into something we are not by putting us all into one mold, has no basis in fact.

ALL women made and make choices all of the time, everyday we all live or have lived.
Even the slave, or kajira or submissive has choices (made all the more apparent as a microclasm of power exchange), and being a submissive should in and itself show you that much at least.

We have the unique viewpoint of seeing the whole of the hierarchy of dominion that exists in nature (which we are a part of as much as any other living being).

We have through out our existance beguiled, alured and even rarely forced our way into every avenue of power in every way possible, just fine without "feminism" or it's unnatural dogma.

It is in fact the feminists; with thier not so cleverly hidden agenda of emasculation, that would have us belive we would be channelled into one mold without choice.

~ All the while trying to force feed us propaganda to make us fit into the mold of thier design despite all our differing aspirations, abilities, and situations.'


"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself."

Tribesmen of Gor, page 333

[damyanti]

[I]The argument that only three women have made choices prior to the feminist movement that came along and would have us make ourselves into something we are not by putting us all into one mold, has no basis in fact.

ALL women made and make choices all of the time, everyday we all live or have lived.

So all women always had the right to a political vote? And those few, who managed to rise above, got there without a struggle, accepted easily as a breeze...and you dont think their life choices constitute feminist struggle?

Laws where women were considered owned and a property (by birth) and had no personal choice, and where ultimatively always someone else had the final say as to their life? My history professors must have made them up?

A woman who is denied the promotion, despite the fact her credentials are indisputably higher than that of her junior male colleague who got promoted instead of her...because he is more suited to the role because he can go to places she cant...like football games, drinking bear, strip clubs and she soon wont be able to put in that many late nights because she is nearing her child bearing time. That to you is right, her place?

A husband has a right to hit and rape his wife? And laws which guarantee him that weren't in place until recently?

I could go on and on and you talk to me about facts.

Yes, in a few places of the world some things went to far and got skewed...but thats because one form extremism only gives birth to another.

[orchidsoul]

I've been reading and re-reading this thread trying to figure out how to properly express myself and Seri's comment just helped me... thank you.

[B][I]The real fact is:

Wemon have made choices throughout human history long long long before the advent of the so called "feminist" movement.

That's the thing- there's more than one feminist movement. It's a 'movement' that has been occurring since the 1700's, though around the mid 1800's began being more vocal in numbers, particularly beginning with the right to vote.

And it wasn't until the 1920 elections that we were allowed to vote for a President. Prior to that, as early as the mid 1700's (I think it was that early), there are a few instances granting women the right to vote in local elections. But often there were restrictions- married women technically owned nothing as it was their husbands, therefore were disqualified, leaving unmarried and widowed women allowed. The rules were not the same in each state either.

The feminist movement encompasses many arenas of equality and choice. From the right to vote, to education, to property rights, to birth control, to reproductive rights, to divorce, to domestic violence, to work force, to equal pay and much more. There literally was a time a woman could not go to school, or could not leave a man that was beating her let alone have the right to not be beaten.

So yes, women have been voicing their choices for many many moons... but it's taken years for various choices to be allowed

I've also had many issues with 'feminists' along the way. In college I took a Philosophy of Feminism course and tore apart in discussions half the books we read. I don't remember who, I think Friednan or Dworkin, but one of them went as far to say women should not get a physical by a male physician and condemn any woman who did. To me, this was precisely what 'we' were supposedly fighting for and why go forth and eliminate a gender?

I completely agree with Seri in the comparison of men and women. We have two different biological make-ups and there's no comparison. It's like apples and oranges.

Do I think that if I'm doing the same job as a man I should be paid the same? Absolutely. Do I think just because I'm a woman I have the right to do *any* job a man can? No- because I'm not physically capable of doing some of their jobs. I don't think anyone deserves a job based solely on gender. Don't get me wrong- if I'm strong enough I shouldn't be eliminated (I work in a physical industry and very much hold my own- but yeah, there are times the big boys move certain things because they can and some of us can't and I'm not remotely ashamed), but I don't see myself being capable of being a pipe fitter, or running a jack hammer 10hrs a day. Physical strength is the biggest difference imo, and it's a reality.

With that being said, without all the women who fought (and still fight) for the right to be an equal part of the work force, women would not be holding some of the positions in companies that they do today... and even still there's discrimination and discrepancies in pay.

All in all- for me it's about the right of choices for any individual. I don't believe we should be trying to replace or emasculate men, or be criticized for staying home with our children whether we're the mother or father, or not be allowed to love whomever we want regardless of their gender, or not be allowed to submit to a man or have a man submit to us, or not be allowed to want to be the breadwinner of the family, and so on and so forth.

Part of my choice is that I like the differences of men and women, in fact relish in them. I do happen to lean towards more traditional roles of a man and woman, even as a very independent woman, but that's most likely because it's not my only choice.

Yes, I'm a feminist by the definition that I believe in equal opportunities, autonomy over my body, and the ability to make my own choices as a woman and human being.

[orchidsoul]

in the interim of me taking forever to write my post, Damyanti you posted and talked about many of the same causes of feminism I did. You mention 'in your country women didn't have to fight for voting and had the right to work and equality before the law'- I was curious in what country you live (if you don't mind saying)?

And yes, practice is oh so different.

[leo9]

The real fact is:

Wemon have made choices throughout human history long long long before the advent of the so called "feminist" movement.

Anyone can make a choice. A prisoner can make the choice to be free, but is still in prison.

Women have always been able to make choices to be free, independent, educated etc., but those choices meant nothing in societies which did not allow women to do those things. Feminism is the belief that women who make such choices should be allowed to act on them. It still leaves the others free to make the choices that society used to dictate for them.

We didn't need Feminism to make any desicions for us.

No, women needed feminists (who were, in case we forget, also women, not aliens from space imposing alien ideas) to change society so that they could carry out those decisions.

Feminists didn't make the decision for you who to vote for: they made it possible for you to vote, so your decision would actually mean something.

If your decision is not to vote because real women don't need to, you also have that choice, but a lot of people do want to. Would you deny them that choice to validate yours?

We have through out our existance beguiled, alured and even rarely forced our way into every avenue of power in every way possible, just fine without "feminism" or it's unnatural dogma.

No, not in any way possible: as your very clear description states, in the sidelong and undercover ways possible to people who are denied real control of their lives. All of which ways are still available to anyone (man or woman) who wants to use them, but thanks to several hundred years of feminism you can also do it in the ways free adults do.

It is in fact the feminists; with thier not so cleverly hidden agenda of emasculation, that would have us belive we would be channelled into one mold without choice.

This is the last resort of a failed argument: Never mind what you say or do, I can see what you really want, and I don't need to present any evidence, I just say so.

There are feminists who hate men. There are also anti-feminists who hate men. It has nothing to do with the core principle.

Any man who feels emasculated because a woman earns as much as he does has a serious self-image problem.

[damyanti]

See I keep reading here about this bad, emasculating feminist stereotype, and you accuse me of sophistry. I have never met any "militant" feminist or someone spewing stupid biased rehtoric such as emasculation who is taken seriously.

To judge those who say they are feminist, by a narrow "militant" group is like judging all muslims based on terrorists, because they are the true muslims. Both claims are nonsense.

The problem with English language, what is lost in the translation is....having equal rights - to live, make your own choices and be respected as a human being - doesnt mean the sexes are the same.

I have never met "militant" feminist or seen them sitting clostered in groups snickering at me for studying, but I have been subjected on a regular basis to "miss" types mocking me for studying and even giving me unsolicited advice how to get myself a husband or how to get my boyfriend to propose.

In my country women never had to go through the struggle for vote like they did in the US, they had a right to work and equality before the law.

But practice is however different, because those are the "intellectual" rights aplied outside of home, and what happens at home....this is a pretty safe country...but gender based violance is the single biggest problem.

I dont believe in emasculating men, for heaven sake I am attracted to dominants...but I do believe that girls have the same right to education, I dont think men are smarter or better than girls, I refuse to be put to my place because only I know what my place is.

And frankly I am so sick and tired of this threads where its discussed whats real - you are not real submissive unless you give yourself as a slave, no trust questions asked, to a first guy that comes along, or you are not a real woman if you say that you are a feminist. Blah, blah, blah...If everyone just felt good about their choice and stopped needing the validation that it is a right one by making everyone else to subscribe to it, this would be a lot nicer world.

Here, those groups labeled or who call themselves feminist, are those who concern themselves with fighting domenstic violance (unless of course you think thats ok, and falls under gender determened role), fighting for rights of working mothers, for longer stay at home time, for higher child benefits and to protect women against mobbing in the work place. I am not going to appologise for my need to defend them.

Its one thing to choose to be a kajira, to feel that you are one and that that feels right to you, but cant you understand not all women feel that way?

Some women want to be cops, some dont like to wear make up...how is that diminishing men? If a guy finds my ability to form a coherent sentence emasculating...he is not someone I want to be with anyway. Do you know why? Because guys like that are those who slap you around. and not in a nice way. And it is thanks to feminists that I have a right not to be forced into marriage with one such jerk.

Lady who said that she had lived history, and is feeling nostalgic about good old times...well (when it comes to patriarchy) I still live with one foot in it and plenty of women in it with both. Yes it means men will open the door for you, it also means you are only seen as an easily replaceable birthing machine, it means he gets to smack you around and nobody thinks its wrong, it means you are just a piece of meat and if he treats you with kindness and respect its his good will.

It is not PC for working women/mothers to mock those who stay at home and I cant remember ever seeing one doing it, but it is completely ok for stay at home mums to trash those who dont. Why is that ok?

You are sick of feminist "militants", I can relate to that...I am sick of constantly having showed down my throat that unless I claim only my way is right, unless I have a man, unless I give birth, unless I stay at home, unless I wear a skirt...that only women who do that are real women, women of substance and I am a liberal/liberatarian/socialist/intellectual/sophist (or any other term which is today supposed to be derogatory) who has no values.

And such stance and insistance on who is a true lady has caused a madness on opposite end where refusing to dress like a man and having a standing appointment at the hair spa means one is not feminist. So I get to fight two sides of nutty extremists. Thanks.

[thir]

The problem with English language, what is lost in the translation is....having equal rights - to live, make your own choices and be respected as a human being - doesnt mean the sexes are the same. ]

Quite right.


[In my country women never had to go through the struggle for vote like they did in the US, they had a right to work and equality before the law.]

May ask which one?

[ I dont think men are smarter or better than girls, I refuse to be put to my place because only I know what my place is.

And frankly I am so sick and tired of this threads where its discussed whats real -


Its one thing to choose to be a kajira, to feel that you are one and that that feels right to you, but cant you understand not all women feel that way? ]

My thoughts too - why this insistence on the one true way?

[And such stance and insistance on who is a true lady has caused a madness on opposite end where refusing to dress like a man and having a standing appointment at the hair spa means one is not feminist. So I get to fight two sides of nutty extremists. Thanks.

LOL - no, you are just in a rather bit group of people who do not appreciate Anyone telling them what to think.

[damyanti]

LOL - no, you are just in a rather bit group of people who do not appreciate Anyone telling them what to think.

True...I don't believe that any one doctrine holds all the answers...I like to read both sides, all sides...and form my own opinion, based on my conscience and what feels right....I don't think anyone else is better qualified or has the right to do that for me, nor do I possess arrogance to think I am qualified to judge anyone else for their choice.

Two things bothered me about this thread:

1: It is factually incorrect to claim that (most) Feminists subscribe to some militant, male hating philosophy....or that only women like that are Feminists...I provided evidence after evidence that that is not true, I doubt it mattered...those who blind themselves, will never see....it is fascinating though how they can completely ignore women like Beverly LaHaye (personally I find her a bit nuts, but more power to her) leading a “feminist organization” or Feminists for Life....how they fit into that stereotype is beyond me.

2: Ungratefulness and Ignorance

Feminism is just a modern name for struggle of women, (for each of us) to be able to make unrestricted choices for ourselves, that has been going on throughout history . ...to be judged by our individual abilities and desires, not by what someone deemed are confined standards of our sex...from Mary Magdalene, Joan of Arc, Elisabeth of Bavaria, Catherine the Great, Florence Nightingale, Marie Curie, Greta Garbo to Elfriede Jelinek, Hillary Clinton, Oprah Winfrey, Ségolène Royal, Rania, Queen of Jordan.... to my niece.

If you remove the name...would the meaning and the facts of the movement change? They enjoy liberties, but have no (or only a vague) idea how it came about.


Susan B. Anthony


Her name is synonymous with Feminist movement.

What you should say to outsiders is that a Christian has neither more nor less rights in our Association than an atheist. When our platform becomes too narrow for people of all creeds and of no creeds, I myself shall not stand upon it.

I always distrust people who know so much about what God wants them to do to their fellows.

Much as I deplore the horrible crime of child-murder, earnestly as I desire its suppression, I cannot believe ... that such a law would have the desired effect. It seems to me to be only mowing off the top of the noxious weed, while the root remains. We want prevention, not merely punishment. We must reach the root of the evil, and destroy it.

She believed, as did many of the feminists of her era, that only the achievement of women's equality and freedom would end the need for abortion.


Elizabeth Cady Stanton

While Stanton is best known for her long contribution to the woman suffrage struggle, she was also active and effective in winning property rights for married women, equal guardianship of children, and liberalized divorce laws so that women could leave marriages that were often abusive of the wife, the children, and the economic health of the family.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton died in New York on October 26, 1902, with nearly 20 years to go before the United States granted women the right to vote.


Lucretia Mott

She considered slavery an evil to be opposed. She refused to use cotton cloth, cane sugar, and other slavery-produced goods. With her skills in ministry she began to make public speeches for abolition. From her home in Philadelphia, she began to travel, usually accompanied by her husband who supported her activism. They often sheltered runaway slaves in their home.

Elected as the first president of the American Equal Rights Convention after the end of the Civil War, Lucretia Mott strove a few years later to reconcile the two factions that split over the priorities between woman suffrage and black male suffrage.


Jane Addams

Addams helped organize the Women's Peace Party and the International Congress of Women in an effort to avert the first World War.
In 1920 she was elected first president of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, the successor organization to the Women's Peace Party. She continued in the presidency until her death.
Addams was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1931 for her work.


Pearl S. Buck

She was a prolific, Pulitzer Prize-winning author. In 1938, she became the first American woman to be awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature, "for her rich and truly epic descriptions of peasant life in China and for her biographical masterpieces."

Buck was an extremely passionate activist for human rights. In 1949, outraged that existing adoption services considered Asian and mixed-race children unadoptable, Pearl established Welcome House, Inc., the first international, interracial adoption agency.


Dorothy Day

She was an American journalist turned anarchist, social activist and ultimately a devout Catholic. She became known for her social justice campaigns in defense of the poor, forsaken, hungry and homeless. Day, with Peter Maurin, founded the Catholic Worker movement in 1933, espousing nonviolence, and hospitality for the impoverished and downtrodden.


Matilda Joslyn Gage

She was a suffragist, a Native American activist, an abolitionist, a freethinker, and a prolific author, who was "born with a hatred of oppression".

She faced prison for her actions under the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 which criminalized assistance to escaped slaves. Even though she was beset by both financial and physical (cardiac) problems throughout her life, her work for women's rights was extensive, practical, and often brilliantly executed.

Gage ensured that every woman in her area (Fayetteville, New York) had the opportunity to vote by writing letters making them aware of their rights, and sitting at the polls making sure nobody was turned away.
In 1871, Gage was part of a group of 10 women who attempted to vote. Reportedly, she stood by and argued with the polling officials on behalf of each individual woman. In 1873 she defended Susan B. Anthony when Anthony was placed on trial for having voted in that election, making compelling legal and moral arguments.


Fannie Lou Hamer

Nobody's free until everybody's free.

She was African American, the youngest of 20 children and the granddaughter of slaves.

Her plain-spoken manner and fervent belief in the Biblical righteousness of her cause gained her a reputation as an electrifying speaker and constant champion of civil rights.

On August 23, 1962, Rev. James Bevel, an organizer for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) and an associate of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., gave a sermon in Ruleville, Mississippi and followed it with an appeal to those assembled to register to vote. Black people who registered to vote in the South faced serious hardships at that time due to institutionalized racism, including harassment, the loss of their jobs, physical beatings, and lynchings; nonetheless, Hamer was the first volunteer. She later said, "I guess if I'd had any sense, I'd have been scared - but what was the point of being scared? The only thing they [white people] could do was kill me, and it seemed they'd been trying to do that a little at a time since I could remember."

On August 31, she traveled on a rented bus with other attendees of Rev. Bevel's sermon to Indianola, Mississippi to register. In what would become a signature trait of Hamer's activist career, she began singing Christian hymns, such as "Go Tell It on the Mountain" and "This Little Light of Mine," to the group in order to bolster their resolve. The hymns also reflected Hamer's belief that the civil rights struggle was a deeply spiritual one. By the next day, she had been harassed by police, fired from her job, lost her dog, and received a death threat from the Ku Klux Klan.

Hamer's courage and leadership in Indianola came to the attention of SNCC organizer Bob Moses, who dispatched Charles McLaurin from the organization with instructions to find "the lady who sings the hymns". McLaurin found and recruited Hamer, and though she remained based in Mississippi, she began traveling around the South doing activist work for the organization.

On June 9, 1963, Hamer was on her way back from Charleston, South Carolina with other activists from a literacy workshop. Stopping in Winona, Mississippi, the group was arrested on a false charge and jailed by white policemen. Once in jail, Hamer and her colleagues were beaten savagely by the police, almost to the point of death.

Released on June 12, she needed more than a month to recover. Though the incident had profound physical and psychological effects, Hamer returned to Mississippi to organize voter registration drives, including the "Freedom Ballot Campaign", a mock election, in 1963, and the "Freedom Summer" initiative in 1964. She was known to the volunteers of Freedom Summer - most of whom were young, white, and from northern states - as a motherly figure who believed that the civil rights effort should be multi-racial in nature.


Dr. Charlotte Denman Lozier

The prevailing "wisdom" of her day decreed that females were weak, incompetent, incapable of making valuable contributions to the common good. But Charlotte Denman Lozier never believed it. When she was very young, her family left their hometown of Milburn, N.J., for the then frontier area of Winona, Minn. After losing her mother in her early teens, she supported her younger siblings by teaching. At age 20 she returned East not for a softer life, but to earn a degree at the New York City Medical College for Women, an institution deemed outrageous not only because the students were female, but because they were taught about hygiene and patient self-help.

In her short life she campaigned for women's right and for the right to live of the unborn.

Lozier's passions came together in her defense of Hester Vaughan, an immigrant servant impregnated and then abandoned by her Philadelphia-area employer. The child died soon after birth. While no legal charges were brought against the baby's father, Vaughan was accused on shaky ground of infanticide and sentenced to death. Feminists such as Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton rallied to her aid. Lozier gave Vaughan free medical care and presented exonerating medical and psychological evidence at a large public meeting organized on Vaughan's behalf. Eventually Vaughan was pardoned and returned to her home in England.


Graciela Olivarez

She was a lawyer who advocated for civil rights, rights of the poor and the physically disadvantaged.

In 1970, Olivarez became the first woman and the first Latina to graduate from the Notre Dame Law School. She was offered a scholarship to the school while she was serving as director of the Arizona branch of the federal Office of Economic Opportunity, despite the fact that she lacked a high school diploma. The Notre Dame Hispanic Law Students Association presents an award in her name annually.


Alice Paul

In 1912, Alice Paul joined the National American Women Suffrage Association (NAWSA) and was appointed Chairman of their Congressional Committee in Washington, DC. After months of fundraising and raising awareness for the cause, membership numbers went up and, in 1913, Alice Paul and Lucy Burns formed the Congressional Union for Women Suffrage. Their focus was lobbying for a constitutional amendment to secure the right to vote for women. Such an amendment had originally been sought by suffragists Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton in 1878. However, by the early 20th century, attempts to secure a federal amendment had ceased. The focus of the suffrage movement had turned to securing the vote on a state-by-state basis.

When their lobbying efforts proved fruitless, Paul and her colleagues formed the National Woman's Party (NWP) in 1916 and began introducing some of the methods used by the suffrage movement in Britain. Tactics included demonstrations, parades, mass meetings, picketing, suffrage watch, fires, and hunger strikes. These actions were accompanied by press coverage and the publication of the weekly Suffragist.

In the election of 1916, Paul and the NWP campaigned against the continuing refusal of President Woodrow Wilson and other incumbent Democrats to support the Suffrage Amendment actively.

In January 1917, the NWP staged the first political protest to picket the White House. The picketers, known as "Silent Sentinels," held banners demanding the right to vote. This was an example of a non-violent civil disobedience campaign.

In July 1917, picketers were arrested on charges of "obstructing traffic." Many, including Paul, were convicted, incarcerated and tortured at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia (later the Lorton Correctional Complex) and the District of Columbia Jail.

In protest of the conditions in Occoquan, Paul commenced a hunger strike. This led to her being moved to the prison’s psychiatric ward and force-fed raw eggs through a plastic tube. Other women joined the strike which, combined with the continuing demonstrations and attendant press coverage, kept the pressure on the Wilson administration. In January, 1918, the president announced that women's suffrage was urgently needed as a "war measure." Wilson strongly urged Congress to pass the legislation. In 1920, after coming down to one vote in the state of Tennessee, the Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution secured the vote for women.



And these are just Americans, and only a handful of them. Most of them are dead, each of them was a lady in the truest sense of that word,,...I bet... - when they see today's women who are preparing to vote, who take the value that their opinion matters for granted, women who work and choose their own spouses, women who have been through a divorce...women who take for granted the right to say “no” to anyone...claiming that they are not feminists and scoffing their noses and devaluing their struggle...- I think they are turning in their graves.

[denuseri]

LMAO <<I shall have to pm you about the shopistry thingy., and yes I was on a rant.



To clarify, when I am speaking of feminism i am generally refering to how it has made me feel, as opposed to oxfords or anyone elses deffinition of it.

Damy, your definition in paticualr from an earlier post of what feminism is; was not inclusive by oxfords standards, it was more what came from your heart or what you have been taught to think in school I assume.
And you obviously feel like people have attacked it. Where as I am indeed only attacking the far extremist side of feminism.

I actually agree that violence against wemon and many other social wrongs should be righted, I simply dont subscribe that being a "feminist" is the best way to do it.

As for histories perspective individual teachers have a tendency to focus on what they feel is important, often to the exclusion of the truth so i dont doubt that if you had a feminist teacher that they told you the history of the world was a dark terible place for all females becuase we were so opressed etc.

I fortunately have a really strong gag reflex and dont allways swallow everything that a professor trys to push down my throat is infact gospel.

I prefer to reaserch it from many different angles and follow my heart some when determining the truth of things. Which is how i came to understand how much influence we as women have actually had on society as child bearers and rearers (prime position to teach children including boys how to become men) as well as cotesans, priestessess, queens, empressess, merchants, warriors,etc etc the list goes on.

I do however judge the theory that feminism is based upon (by its oxford deffenition of equality) as being illogical in its supposition as it relates to my own ethical standards becuase it asks me to believe in something i consider to be a lie, equality is a utopian ideal and I dont believe in any way that any two people are truely equal.

Living where I live and being born and raised in a somwhat different culture from that in which i currently reside; I honestly do feel assualted on a daily basis by the pervading dogma of a feminism that attempts to emasculate the males around it.

To say that becuase I disagree with feminism means that I some how support putting the female half of the species into som kind of "mold" or under the jeapordy of certian cruelty at the hands of men is preposterous to say the least.

To say that I think all women should be incapable of thinking other than the way I do belays an ignorance that I can only subcribe to the fact that who ever thinks thats how I feel doesnt really know me at all or they are in fact trying to be hurtful or use sophistry to make a point.

It is statements like those that cuase my little beast to stir and go grrrr and come out with a rant against the hipocracy of those types of statements with my own sometimes equally sanguine statements.


Many cultures have provided near equal or better oppertunities to women throughout history and they didnt need a feminist movement to do it.

The fact that in America one seemed nessesary at the time is ironic, of course the entire united states, just as much of weastern europes culture preceding its emergence from the victorian era was rife with struggle trying to adapt to the rapid industrialization of human society and many men and women (yes we as wemon could have prevented this as we have great influence) made mistakes during that period that cuased certian dogmas to prevail despite thier preposterous lack of logical observation, hence the misconseption that only white anglo saxon males had any fortitude or intelectual capacity, (1800's) which eventually cuased a swing of the cultural pendulem in the other direction (1900's) that we are still riding today of which feminism is a part.


I have prety much said all I can say.

Peace my sisters.

(funny how the men are avoiding this thread like a plague huh?)











I

[damyanti]

Peace my sisters.

My sisters?

But OMG, thats like women, you know, coming together and doing something together and might like result in a common values and common "non-sensical "theroy" or movement...you know like a movement of (a group) of women...otherwise know as "feminist" movement.

And I though we are supposed to stand alone because all it takes to change something is "moral fortitude and common sense".

This was irony, but you can call it sophistry, sis.

[orchidsoul]

Yeah- I think some very exaggerated stereotypes are being applied in this thread.

Damyanti- I do feel your passion, and agree with many of your beliefs on feminism, but I think to label so many people with such ugly attributes is being highly stereotypical. Remember, not everyone that's Muslim is a terrorist.

Regardless of whether or not we all call ourselves feminists, which to be honest this is the first time in years I've been asked, I think it's evident that every woman in this thread actually stands for much of the same even if there's some differences.

What if my response was:
I am a woman who believes in equal opportunities, autonomy over my body, and the ability to make my own choices as a woman and human being.
If there's a need to label that as a feminist, so be it- but if someone else minds... then they need not be labeled.

The term 'feminist' lends itself to actively pursuing freedoms of women. As far as I'm concerned, I do that daily by presenting myself as a qualified, equal, feminine, and strong woman who loves the fact that men are a different pillar of strength that I absolutely could not live without. But no, I don't 'fight' for liberation and equality as many before me and in front of me do. Perhaps that's why some people don't want to be labeled a feminist? Sometimes vocabulary gets so churned and stereotyped along the way.

Kitten, Seri, or any of the 'non-feminists' in this thread, do not seem like weak, ignorant, rude, butch(which, btw, is one benefit of 'feminism'- a woman can be butch if she wants), conceited, or ungrateful women to me. I'm not in any way saying you're calling them that personally, but you are grouping them in your beliefs of non-feminists. Again, I do understand your passion... but words can be so accusatory.

DowntownAmber- good thread, it's sparked some interesting conversation... but where the heck did you go?! (besides far far away) haha

[leo9]

I forget which author it was who said "I have never been very clear what feminism is, I only know that people call me a feminist when I express sentiments that distinguish me from a prostitute, or a doormat."

[AdrianaAurora]

I forget which author it was who said "I have never been very clear what feminism is, I only know that people call me a feminist when I express sentiments that distinguish me from a prostitute, or a doormat."

God, I want to kiss you leo, lol. If I had a penny for every time that happened...

[hopperboo]

I do not consider myself a feminist.

Definition of one? Hmm...I'd say a woman who concerns herself with her career rather than her husband and children. A woman who wants to 'run the show' at home. A woman who thinks she is 'equal in all ways' to a man. A woman isn't an exact equal to a man. Men and women are different, and instead of embracing that difference and becoming equal on that 'different' ground they rebel at any idea they can't do ANY job just as well as a man. The fact is men and women do different jobs better than the other. It's a hard fact of life. That is why there aren't any Navy SEAL females. (Durrr).

And just to make myself clear I don't believe women shouldn't have jobs or careers. However, I DO think that the marriage and children come first. If things are going badly at home then perhaps it's time to take a break and focus on the vows one took and the children that were brought into the world.

My views on feminism are negative for the most part. Yes, I think it did bring some rights and respect for women that were long past due, but at what cost? Our world is falling apart and I think a lot of that is to do with the feminist movement. Marriages are breaking up left and right, children are left with babysitters or other day care providers instead of being raised by the parents.

I think men like be chased by an aggressive woman rather than than chasing the woman (romantically). Which is a total bite for us women that WANT to be chased. It makes me sad.

[AdrianaAurora]

Another thread on whats "true". Thank you so much, how did I ever manage to live without being told what I am, is beyond me.

And as I said before, its all about women being mean and bitchy to other women.

I so love it when "soccer mom" types put me to my place.

I so love it when they dont bother to check what a WAG is, but label themselves one. Thanks for the laugh girls.

I especially love when women who dont know what "a lady" is call themslves one.

I so love it when women who label themselves "non feminists" spew feminists rehtoric.

I especially love women who live their lives one way, like have a job. But then tell me how all societies flaws are a blame of a working mother.

You bring this debate on a gibberish level that women and men are biologically equal because you have no better argument. And its something not even a most militant feminist would dispute. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. What they do claim is equal rights and equality. And some even superiority.

Do you know how my husband calls this thread? Jealousy thread!

Some of us are that strong, some of us can keep up and those that cant...- they are "ladies" and "not feminists".

I do concern myself with my career. I am one of, if not the best in my field. I take HUGE pride in that. I concern myself with my husband and my child just as much. My son is loved, well taken care of, accomplished and well behaved. I spend more time with him, than most "stay at homes" do.

I do not think I am "equal in all ways" to a man. I am. I proved it.

Am I better than all men in all things? No. But I am better than most men in most things, that includes intelligence and (physical) strength.

Am I better than all women in all things? No, (though my husband says, yes, lol). But I am better than most women in most things, that includes intelligence and strenght.

And do you know why there arent any Navy SEAL "females", beacuse women are NOT ALLOWED to be Navy SEALs!!! And it has about as much factual logic as does prohibiting gays in the military. If they were, I am sure you couldnt cut it, but there are those who could. Not many, but how many men are Navy SEALs either.


My great great grandmother was a feminist. My great grandmother was a feminist. My grandmother is a feminist. Even my beauty queen mother is a feminist. Every single one of them fought for equal rights, for fair treatment of themsleves and other women. Each of them earned their respect. So I dont need anyone to tell me how "good" and "perfect" place the world was for women back then, I heard the true "hard facts" from their lips and diaries. And each of them looked and behaved like a lady, in a manner you will never live up to.

I most certainly never chased my husband or any man. And once you get past all the romantic crap, the truth of the matter is - my husband married me because I wasnt a WAG, because I wasnt with him for his money. Because I didnt need him to take care of me, in any way, because he was fed up with all the little subs and their "rescue me" sob stories. He married me because I was His equal.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go emasculate some women.

[DowntownAmber]

Another thread on whats "true". Thank you so much, how did I ever manage to live without being told what I am, is beyond me.

And as I said before, its all about women being mean and bitchy to other women.

I so love it when "soccer mom" types put me to my place.

I so love it when they dont bother to check what a WAG is, but label themselves one. Thanks for the laugh girls.

I especially love when women who dont know what "a lady" is call themslves one.

I so love it when women who label themselves "non feminists" spew feminists rehtoric.

I especially love women who live their lives one way, like have a job. But then tell me how all societies flaws are a blame of a working mother.

You bring this debate on a gibberish level that women and men are biologically equal because you have no better argument. And its something not even a most militant feminist would dispute. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. What they do claim is equal rights and equality. And some even superiority.

Do you know how my husband calls this thread? Jealousy thread!

Some of us are that strong, some of us can keep up and those that cant...- they are "ladies" and "not feminists".

I do concern myself with my career. I am one of, if not the best in my field. I take HUGE pride in that. I concern myself with my husband and my child just as much. My son is loved, well taken care of, accomplished and well behaved. I spend more time with him, than most "stay at homes" do.

I do not think I am "equal in all ways" to a man. I am. I proved it.

Am I better than all men in all things? No. But I am better than most men in most things, that includes intelligence and (physical) strength.

Am I better than all women in all things? No, (though my husband says, yes, lol). But I am better than most women in most things, that includes intelligence and strenght.

And do you know why there arent any Navy SEAL "females", beacuse women are NOT ALLOWED to be Navy SEALs!!! And it has about as much factual logic as does prohibiting gays in the military. If they were, I am sure you couldnt cut it, but there are those who could. Not many, but how many men are Navy SEALs either.


My great great grandmother was a feminist. My great grandmother was a feminist. My grandmother is a feminist. Even my beauty queen mother is a feminist. Every single one of them fought for equal rights, for fair treatment of themsleves and other women. Each of them earned their respect. So I dont need anyone to tell me how "good" and "perfect" place the world was for women back then, I heard the true "hard facts" from their lips and diaries. And each of them looked and behaved like a lady, in a manner you will never live up to.

I most certainly never chased my husband or any man. And once you get past all the romantic crap, the truth of the matter is - my husband married me because I wasnt a WAG, because I wasnt with him for his money. Because I didnt need him to take care of me, in any way, because he was fed up with all the little subs and their "rescue me" sob stories. He married me because I was His equal.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go emasculate some women.

Who are you referring to when you say "you?"