Spai'ns Stolen Babies

I saw a TV program with that title. it was quite horrible:

"Rumors of widespread, organized efforts to steal newborns from their parents have circulated in Spain for decades. But it was only on March 15 when those who believe themselves to be victims of the crime had their first opportunity to tell their stories to the Spanish government."

"There appear to be two distinct phases of baby theft that occurred in Spain during the 20th century. The first, which was not only approved by dictator Francisco Franco but also promoted by his government as a means of "improving" the Spanish "race," was politically inspired. In the years after Franco won Spain's civil war, he had tens of thousands of former Republicans and other dissidents arrested. The small children of imprisoned women dissidents were sent first to state-run centers or convents, and then reassigned to families whose values better coincided with the regime's. "The state considered these children in need of re-education," says University of Barcelona historian Ricard Vinyes, who has written a book on the subject. "It was actually proud of these efforts and would publish the results of how many children had been 'welcomed' annually." "


"As the regime became both less virulent about persecuting its enemies and more open to the outside world, the wave of politically motivated thefts receded — but then a new form of baby stealing emerged. In what appear to be thousands of cases throughout Spain, individual doctors and nurses — many of the latter nuns — took newborns from obstetric wards and sold them to prospective adopted parents. That's the claim by victims who, in many cases, can support their theory with death certificates that have clearly been falsified or cemetery documents that contradict what parents were told at the supposed time of death."


They are talking tens of thousands of children, and it is not just the thing in itself, but also the fact that Spain does not seem to have left the facist regime of Franco behind, many would have that time back. And that is why there is so little help.

Another thing is the close relationship between the Franco regime and the Catholic church. It wasn't just doctors -whose word were apparently law - but very much nuns as well as priests engaging it these cruelties. Why?

That is frightening and disgusting.

Bynature I am not a Violent person or one whoseks revenge, but ANYONR who Kidnaps, Molstests or otherwise doess ANYTHING to an Infant, New Born or Child, should be shot, or hung from the HIeghtest Treethere is and letthe Voltures have a Free Meal
I can Tolerate almost anything, But Abuase to Women, Children and Infants NEVER

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Originally Posted by StrictMasterD

Bynature I am not a Violent person or one whoseks revenge, but ANYONR who Kidnaps, Molstests or otherwise doess ANYTHING to an Infant, New Born or Child, should be shot, or hung from the HIeghtest Treethere is and letthe Voltures have a Free Meal
I can Tolerate almost anything, But Abuase to Women, Children and Infants NEVER

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I am not violent either - or only verbally - but my reactions were the same. But not one of them have been brought to justice. However, there is now some help for grown children and parents to find each other.

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Originally Posted by ksst

That is frightening and disgusting.

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A reason to hang on to democracy, such as it is.

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Originally Posted by thir

Another thing is the close relationship between the Franco regime and the Catholic church. It wasn't just doctors -whose word were apparently law - but very much nuns as well as priests engaging it these cruelties. Why?

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When I was at school we had a couple of teachers who were refugees from Franco, so we got to hear a lot about it. The Church was always in bed with the Facisti (the term is overused these days, but these were the people who actually called themselves that) because the Fascists sold themselves as conservatives who would restore proper respect for authority (including, of course, priests' authority) and moral values. You know, the old fashioned values like keeping women in the kitchen and beating stroppy kids into line, and banning dangerous books and political troublemakers, and stamping out gays and adulterers and suchlike. No wonder many people are nostalgic for it; if you're a conservative middle-class straight male, it must sound like a golden age.

If you want to know why the politically savvy are so scared of the alliance between religious fundamentalists and political conservatives, you don't have go as far afield as the Middle East: just look at the old Fascist states in Europe.

Another article came up with the same topic: 300,000 Babies Trafficked In Spain? http://www.care2.com/causes/300000-b...in.html?page=2

There isn't much new in it, but these two points caught my attention:

First: Quote from interview:
In 1971 Manoli, who was 23 at the time and not long married, gave birth to what she was told was a healthy baby boy, but he was immediately taken away for what were called routine tests.

Nine interminable hours passed. “Then, a nun, who was also a nurse, coldly informed me that my baby had died,” she says.

They would not let her have her son’s body, nor would they tell her when the funeral would be.

Did she not think to question the hospital staff?

“Doctors, nuns?” she says, almost in horror. “I couldn’t accuse them of lying. This was Franco’s Spain. A dictatorship. Even now we Spaniards tend not to question authority.”


She said: Even now we Spaniards tend not to question authority. But the regime fell in 1978 - 33 years ago! In other words, a generation ago and then some. The old people from then are gone, the most influental old, and a whole new generation have have grown up who has never known the facist regime. Even so!

Consider how things have changed in those years in other countries - the 60's with rebellion against authority, the 70's with women's lib, the 80's with other kinds of youth culture, the 90's-20's the Y generation with electronics and conctact with the whole world. What has held back Spain, and why does the ghost of facism linger to this extent?
How is it even possible?

The other one:And In Argentina….Mothers Of the Plaza de Mayo

All this is eerily reminiscent of Argentina, where the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo was formed by women who came together in the course of trying to find their missing sons and daughters, who were abducted by agents of the Argentine government during the years known as the Dirty War (1976–1983). As many as 30,000 children “disappeared” at this time, in exactly the same circumstances.

Questions:

Again, what is this obsession with abduction children?

What is facism? There is some consensus on this, but also much disagreement, probably because various facist regimes are customized to various countries.

What is it about obeying authorities, even to overruling something as basic as your own children?

What is authority? Is there good and bad authority? Authority, as I see it, is not to do with the the authoritarians, but with the people who obey them. Why do they do that?

Are there values so universal that all should adhere to them, forcibly if neccesary?

I can see the reason for child abduction for a fascist regime. So, you have political enemies who will raise their kids with the same beliefs, you abduct those kids and give them to people who will raise them 'right" and in a generation, ta da, no more enemies. It's similar to what happened to the Aborigines in Australia, although without the fascists- many children were abducted to be raised 'civilized" and never saw their families again. Their families were told they died, or were told nothing and were powerless to find their kids again. When the children grew up they still weren't accepted by society on an equal basis, but they had lost their roots as well. All in all, a very bad situation. We can be a real nasty species. I want to go think on that other thread now, the positive aspects of people, but am having trouble coming up with things.

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Originally Posted by ksst

I want to go think on that other thread now, the positive aspects of people, but am having trouble coming up with things.

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One positive note is that there are still plenty of people who find the abduction and abuse of children, for ANY reason, to be intolerable. The fact that these incidents are being exposed, no longer hidden under the guise of government or religion, is a positive thing, in my book.

That's true.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

One positive note is that there are still plenty of people who find the abduction and abuse of children, for ANY reason, to be intolerable. The fact that these incidents are being exposed, no longer hidden under the guise of government or religion, is a positive thing, in my book.

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Mine too. Took a hell of a long time, but did come out in the end.

And who knows? Maybe people will learn what facists are, and think for themselves and not give them power.

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Originally Posted by ksst

I can see the reason for child abduction for a fascist regime. So, you have political enemies who will raise their kids with the same beliefs, you abduct those kids and give them to people who will raise them 'right" and in a generation, ta da, no more enemies. It's similar to what happened to the Aborigines in Australia, although without the fascists- many children were abducted to be raised 'civilized" and never saw their families again. Their families were told they died, or were told nothing and were powerless to find their kids again. When the children grew up they still weren't accepted by society on an equal basis, but they had lost their roots as well. All in all, a very bad situation. We can be a real nasty species. I want to go think on that other thread now, the positive aspects of people, but am having trouble coming up with things.

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Well, the thing is, we talk about various difficult topics here, but that doesn not mean that that is all we are!
Look at the way people always try to help each other here, for example.

Reminds me of how hundreds of thousands of working-class British kids were taken from their mothers during the first half of the 20th century and sent to Australia and Canada where they were told they were orphans and handed out as slaves (that's what you call forced unpaid labour isn't it?) to colonial farms, abused by (yes, you got it) the Catholic Church, and, of course, they would become useful supplements to the white stock in those countries when they grew up.

Seems authorities all over the world happily abuse children, not just the Spanish. And you can't help asking, is this why the Catholic Church forbids artificial contraception?

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Originally Posted by MMI

Reminds me of how hundreds of thousands of working-class British kids were taken from their mothers during the first half of the 20th century and sent to Australia and Canada where they were told they were orphans and handed out as slaves (that's what you call forced unpaid labour isn't it?) to colonial farms, abused by (yes, you got it) the Catholic Church, and, of course, they would become useful supplements to the white stock in those countries when they grew up.

Seems authorities all over the world happily abuse children, not just the Spanish. And you can't help asking, is this why the Catholic Church forbids artificial contraception?

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When you say 'mothers', do you mean that the pretext for taking them was single mothers?